The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 03:55am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9
Bringing in a Sub after free throws.

During a summer league game. We had a discussion on when to bring a substitute in during free throws.
Situation: After the first of a two shot free throws there was no sub a the scores table. Then after the official bonce the ball to the free throw shooter a sub went to the table. One of the official during the game said that because the ball was in the hands of the free thrower that the sub could not enter the game. However, after a made free throw the ball become dead until in the hands of a team for a throw in. So, with that should the sub had enter the game?
__________________
Making the right call "Always"
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 04:16am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,060
I am not sure what you are asking, but I will give you what can happen.

When shooting 2 shot FTs (or multiple FTs) a sub cannot come into the game until after the last FT is completed and successful. If the last shot is missed, they have to wait until the clock is stopped for a timeout or a stoppage in play.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 04:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9
Time out

If a time out is calls before administering FT's. After the time out does the lead official blow the whistles to signal ready for play?
__________________
Making the right call "Always"
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 05:26am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,060
No.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 06:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 339
Quote:
When shooting 2 shot FTs (or multiple FTs) a sub cannot come into the game until after the last FT is completed and successful. If the last shot is missed, they have to wait until the clock is stopped for a timeout or a stoppage in play.
I know it to be it this way, if 2 free throws, substitution can enter after the first of two. If the sub is not at the table side after the first, but by the second he walks to table side, sub can only enter after the second of two is made, the ball is dead official blows whistle and sub can enter.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 07:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick
During a summer league game. We had a discussion on when to bring a substitute in during free throws.
Situation: After the first of a two shot free throws there was no sub a the scores table. Then after the official bonce the ball to the free throw shooter a sub went to the table. One of the official during the game said that because the ball was in the hands of the free thrower that the sub could not enter the game. However, after a made free throw the ball become dead until in the hands of a team for a throw in. So, with that should the sub had enter the game?
When can a sub enter? -- When the ball is dead and the clock is stopped. (exception: during FTs only before the last)

Are those conditions met when a player has the ball ready to shoot a FT?

If not, when are those conditions next met?

(You'll have to get those last two answers yourself)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 09:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick
However, after a made free throw the ball become dead until in the hands of a team for a throw in. So, with that should the sub had enter the game?
If the player made the second free throw, the substitute should be allowed, if that is what you are asking.

If you are asking if the player should have been permitted after the ball was given to the shooter, but before the attempt was converted, the answer is no.

As I understand it, a substitute can enter the game during free throws prior to the last shot that will become a live ball if missed (not sure if I said that right). This means prior to the first shot of a 1-and-1 situation (also prior to the second shot of the 1-and-1), prior to the second shot of a two shot foul, and prior to the third shot of a three shot foul, a substitution can be made, assuming the sub is at the table.

A substitute can also enter to shoot free throws for a technical foul or to replace an injured or disqulified player.

After the last shot of a free throw sequence is completed, a subsitution may also be made.

Is that everything?
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 12:32pm
Statistician/Ref Hybrid
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 1,002
Nba

And for what iot's worth, in NBA, they can enter after the first free throw. but after that, they have to wait until the next dead ball following the last free throws. (Or so it was in my pro summer league).
__________________
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." – Dalai Lama

The center of attention as the lead & trail. – me
Games officiated: 465 Basketball · 73 Softball · 16 Baseball
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 28, 2006, 02:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick
If a time out is calls before administering FT's. After the time out does the lead official blow the whistles to signal ready for play?
By the book, YES, but most people don't do it. I always do if I am the administering official.

NFHS rules book references: 8-1-2 . . . Following a time out or intermission, the resumption-of-play procedure may be used to prevent delay. The timer will sound the authorized warning horn and final signal. The administering official will sound the whistle to indicate play will resume. The ball shall be placed at the disposal of the thrower or placed on the floor and the count shall begin. Either or both teams may be charged with a violation. Following a violation by one or both teams, if the offending team(s) continues to delay, a technical foul shall be called.


The officials manual also details this in sections 274 and 275. "After the second horn to end the time-out or intermission, the administering official shall sound his/her whistle to indicate play is ready to resume."

So the whistle is really supposed to be sounded prior to resuming play no matter how the game will continue (throw-in, jump ball, free throw). Although most people only blow it prior to administering a throw-in.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 29, 2006, 08:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Nevadaref has it right

By rule, we are supposed to sound the whistle to indicate the start of play. I brought this to the attention of my local officials association and the association basically took a vote that, in the area where I live, we will NOT sound the whistle before a free throw (but we will continue to do so prior to a throw in).

Although I think it's a little odd that an officials association would just decide to ignore a rule, I'm not going to make this *my* issue. The point of sounding the whistle prior to resuming play is to get everyone's attention and let them know things are starting back up. You can accomplish this prior to a free throw by stepping into the lane and announcing how many free throws will be shot and then bouncing the ball to the thrower.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 29, 2006, 09:18am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref


The officials manual also details this in sections 274 and 275. "After the second horn to end the time-out or intermission, the administering official shall sound his/her whistle to indicate play is ready to resume."
The key words are "at the end of a timeout or intermission". The FED also recommends (somewhere) that you do so after an unusual delay also. Any other time ----> no whistle.

That's all you have to remember.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue Aug 29, 2006 at 09:37am.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 29, 2006, 09:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
The key words are "at the end of a timeout or intermission". The FED also recommends (somewhere) that you do so after an unusual delay also. Any other time ----> no whistle.

That's all you have to remember.
I know this is the case. I guess (where I live, anyway) there's always been the exception of blowing the whistle after a TO, but before a FT. Maybe the feeling is any other time, players will be moving full speed during a throw-in, but players still stand around during a FT until it hits the rim. I'm not sure the reasoning. I believe that is the case in NCAA as well - I've never heard anyone blow the whistle to administer a FT, even after a TO.
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 29, 2006, 01:55pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtg19
By rule, we are supposed to sound the whistle to indicate the start of play. I brought this to the attention of my local officials association and the association basically took a vote that, in the area where I live, we will NOT sound the whistle before a free throw (but we will continue to do so prior to a throw in).

Although I think it's a little odd that an officials association would just decide to ignore a rule, I'm not going to make this *my* issue. The point of sounding the whistle prior to resuming play is to get everyone's attention and let them know things are starting back up. You can accomplish this prior to a free throw by stepping into the lane and announcing how many free throws will be shot and then bouncing the ball to the thrower.
In all my years of officiating, I cannot think of one time I have ever officiated a basketball game where an official blew their whistle before a FT after a timeout. I have never seen that happen or known anyone to advocate doing such a thing.

Also, this is not a rule; it is a mechanic in the NF book. Mechanics can always be changed, ignored or modified by local associations and state organizations. You can look for examples of this all over the country according to Mary Struckoff and there is no penalty for anyone to change a mechanic for their officials. I have never heard anyone at any camp I have ever attended admonish someone over blowing the whistle at this time.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 29, 2006, 02:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Also, this is not a rule; it is a mechanic in the NF book. Mechanics can always be changed, ignored or modified by local associations and state organizations. You can look for examples of this all over the country according to Mary Struckoff and there is no penalty for anyone to change a mechanic for their officials. I have never heard anyone at any camp I have ever attended admonish someone over blowing the whistle at this time.

Peace
You are correct in that this is "only" a mechanic. But you are aware the IHSA wants their officials to use all the prescribed Fed. mechanics, and they have made it clear that post-season assignments can be affected by the use or non-use of the prescribed mechanics.

Now, that said, I hope they don't keep officials from doing the post-season just because they don't blow the whistle in this particular instance. And, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that doesn't blow the whistle in this case as well. But it does appear that the Fed. wants it blown at the start of a FT, after a TO.

Anyone else blow the whistle in this case? Or not? (Uh oh, I feel a poll coming on...)
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 29, 2006, 02:37pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
You are correct in that this is "only" a mechanic. But you are aware the IHSA wants their officials to use all the prescribed Fed. mechanics, and they have made it clear that post-season assignments can be affected by the use or non-use of the prescribed mechanics.

Now, that said, I hope they don't keep officials from doing the post-season just because they don't blow the whistle in this particular instance. And, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that doesn't blow the whistle in this case as well. But it does appear that the Fed. wants it blown at the start of a FT, after a TO.

Anyone else blow the whistle in this case? Or not? (Uh oh, I feel a poll coming on...)
M&M, that is not true. We use a lot of mechanics that are not listed in the book or are modified. For example the how we administer the ball on the end line is different than what it says in the NF Official's Manual. Also when the NF could not decide for a few years whether to long switch or not to long switch, we were doing a completely different mechanic for that 2 or 3 year stretch.

I also go to the camp of our Head Clinician every year. He openly tells people that his way is the way the IHSA is doing things. And openly talks about how many clinicians across the state are teaching mechanics that are not the "correct way."

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"free" throws John Chladek Basketball 8 Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:55pm
Free Throws?? Cyber-Ref Basketball 13 Thu Jan 23, 2003 08:17am
free throws 49john Basketball 6 Sat Jan 18, 2003 09:02pm
Set up on free throws.... barknoll Basketball 6 Fri Jan 18, 2002 12:10pm
Free Throws? Just Curious Basketball 2 Wed Dec 20, 2000 10:58pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:50am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1