Incidental contact

[Nevadaref]

There is a big difference in the philosophy of this play at different levels. The NFHS has a case play stating that a defensive player lying on the floor should not be charged with a foul when an offensive player trips over him/her. The NCAA has an AR which makes the opposite ruling and states this is a blocking foul and that the defender does not have LGP. I have no clue what the NBA does nor do I care, but I would guess that like the rest of their game, they favor the offensive player.

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

I'm just the messenger JR... don't point that cannon my way!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

Even when the dribbler moves outa his path and runs/brushes into a defender who hasn't altered their straight-line path? Somehow, I really doubt your D1 friends would call that one on the defender. Not if they were any good anyway.

You'd really call a foul on a defender who was just standing there or moving in a straight-line path if a dribbler altered directions and then ran into them?

Forget LGP; each player is still entitled to a legal spot on the court.

You missed my point also, Nevada. You don't almost always(99%) call it on the defender. You call each situation individually depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it's incidental contact with no call; other times, the foul could be on either player.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Even when the dribbler moves outa his path and runs/brushes into a defender who hasn't altered their straight-line path? Somehow, I really doubt your D1 friends would call that one on the defender. Not if they were any good anyway.

You'd really call a foul on a defender who was just standing there or moving in a straight-line path if a dribbler altered directions and then ran into them?

I can't speak for them, but every indication that I've had from them makes me believe that, yes, the assignors and conference coordinators want the call made that way. What I would call isn't really an issue since I am not on the floor for any D1 games, but I guess if I got there, I would do as they wanted.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Forget LGP; each player is still entitled to a legal spot on the court.

That is certainly true in the NFHS game, but as I wrote above it is NOT the case in the NCAA.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You missed my point also, Nevada. You don't almost always(99%) call it on the defender. You call each situation individually depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it's incidental contact with no call; other times, the foul could be on either player.

Again, I can't say for sure because I don't work that level of ball, but from what I hear 99% of the time that is the way those guys and gals call it up there. It doesn't really matter whether we agree with it or not. Certainly no one is consulting me!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is certainly true in the NFHS game, but as I wrote above it is NOT the case in the NCAA.

We might need to make a distinction between Men's and Women's basketball. I know this is a sensitive issue for many, but there is a difference in many philosophies and contact is one of them. Having attended a couple of camps personally that D1 Men's assignors run, I do have a little insight on what they told us. I have never heard of this being a definite foul. I do remember officials being credited for not calling cheap foul calls on defensive players when they did not initiate contact.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again, I can't say for sure because I don't work that level of ball, but from what I hear 99% of the time that is the way those guys and gals call it up there. It doesn't really matter whether we agree with it or not. Certainly no one is consulting me!

I do not work that level either. I may one day have a shot, but only time will tell. From what I have learned in attending camps and working with D1 officials at HS camps, I have not heard any one say this needed to be called. Also, the OPer tried to suggest that a "certain part of the country" used this philosophy and have benefited and got to the NBA. Well that is not so true anymore. The system that was used in the ACC and SEC is no longer. Both conferences had completely different supervisors (because of some scandal in one case). So the NBA friendly mechanics and philosophies do not apply like they used to.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Rut,
My comment that you just quoted was in the context of a defender lying on the floor and the offensive player trips over him. It was about that specific play and the AR the NCAA provides for it stating that this is a blocking foul. That's all I was saying to JR there. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have never heard of this being a definite foul. I do remember officials being credited for not calling cheap foul calls on defensive players when they did not initiate contact.

That's my understanding too.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I can't speak for them, but every indication that I've had from them makes me believe that, yes, the assignors and conference coordinators want the call made that way.

Well, I've been told the complete opposite, also including conversations with assignors and conference coordinators. They want each call to be decided on it's own merits, and it's never automatically anything.

Just gonna have to disagree on this one.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

This is the same thing I hear from guys who work in the ACC. And when I attend camps where ACC refs are observing I always make that call. And I lean towards making that call in my JuCo games.

However, in my HS games I am more apt to pass on the play if I feel the defender did nothing wrong.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This is the same thing I hear from guys who work in the ACC. And when I attend camps where ACC refs are observing I always make that call. And I lean towards making that call in my JuCo games.

However, in my HS games I am more apt to pass on the play if I feel the defender did nothing wrong.

In the women's college game they want this called on the defense.

[REFVA]

By the explanation of the poster, I would not have called it. Yet I can only imagine the defender was probably riding the offensive player and mostly likely the contact might have not been incidental. Yet keep in mind incidental contact if the offense was not put at a disadvantage. which in this case it sound like the offense lost the ball. I would have liked to see the play, Positioning as always means a lot. seeing from different angles will defenitely give you a better call.

Originally Posted by REFVA

By the explanation of the poster, I would not have called it. Yet I can only imagine the defender was probably riding the offensive player and mostly likely the contact might have not been incidental. Yet keep in mind incidental contact if the offense was not put at a disadvantage. which in this case it sound like the offense lost the ball. I would have liked to see the play, Positioning as always means a lot. seeing from different angles will defenitely give you a better call.

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

I do agree with a previous poster who said its much easier to explain the foul than the no-call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

As noted here, the penalty for not calling this a foul is two shots and the ball at the division line.

[btaylor64]

Gentlemen I don't post here to argue, and I barely post to debate a topic, nor do I post anything that is my own personal opinion. Everything I post I have taken from some very high level officials, and I assume that to be the best you have to learn from the best and that is just what I am doing and trying to express here.

Jurassic Referee I understand what you are meaning in replying to my post. I believe you are saying that almost always is too much and that I'm saying that a trip or tangle of feet is always a foul. I am not saying that and I shouldn't have used 99% as how much I call this. I agree 100% with you about each play having its own merit and should be judged as such, but like someone said earlier it is a whole lot easier to sell a trip foul than to no call a trip foul. Are there going to be plays where two players are next to each other and the offensive player just trips themselves? Sure there are, and that is why you have to have a high level of concentration at all times.


MPLAHE,

From the play you described, I have a tripping foul. Don't try to think too hard into the defender having LGP and therefore leaving the onus on the dribbler. they are both side by side meaning that the offensive player has his head and shoulders past the defender. If the kids' feet get tangled up don't be afraid to blow the whistle. I would much rather go to the team of the defensive player's coach and tell him I blew it rather than going to the irate offensive team's coach and trying to sell him that I got the call right or even go over and tell him I missed it because he is going to tell you yeah he and everybody else saw that you missed it too. Whack!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

As described, I have a foul on the defense in this play.

Regarding the percentages posted earlier -- I think that when this play happens in the "open court" it usually is a foul on the defense. When the offensive player drives to the hoop (especially when s/he's "out of control"), the likelihood of it being a foul goes down.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

I do agree with a previous poster who said its much easier to explain the foul than the no-call.

The correct call is a foul on B1 for this play. B1 didn't have LGP so is responsible for any contact that leads to an advantage.

BTW, I normally have a foul on a defender lying on the ground who inadvertently trips up an opponent with the ball.