Incidental contact

[btaylor64]

I mispoke, I should have said that in my region with college ball it is expressed that you call this a foul, and where I am from is where refs, for the most part are wanting to get into the pro game and therefore call this a foul like I do, cause this is what the pro game wants. (I bet if you think hard you will guess which part of the country I am talking about. It is also where about 70% of the NBA staff is from.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I mispoke, I should have said that in my region with college ball it is expressed that you call this a foul, and where I am from is where refs, for the most part are wanting to get into the pro game and therefore call this a foul like I do, cause this is what the pro game wants. (I bet if you think hard you will guess which part of the country I am talking about. It is also where about 70% of the NBA staff is from.)

That's complete nonsense afaic.

You're trying to justify your own position by trying to say the the colleges and the NBA agree with your hypothesis. Well, that horse don't ride. They don't agree with you. Imo, if you call that foul every time, as you're suggesting, you'll never get a sniff of a D1 college game, let alone the NBA.

[Nevadaref]

There is a big difference in the philosophy of this play at different levels. The NFHS has a case play stating that a defensive player lying on the floor should not be charged with a foul when an offensive player trips over him/her. The NCAA has an AR which makes the opposite ruling and states this is a blocking foul and that the defender does not have LGP. I have no clue what the NBA does nor do I care, but I would guess that like the rest of their game, they favor the offensive player.

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

I'm just the messenger JR... don't point that cannon my way!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

Even when the dribbler moves outa his path and runs/brushes into a defender who hasn't altered their straight-line path? Somehow, I really doubt your D1 friends would call that one on the defender. Not if they were any good anyway.

You'd really call a foul on a defender who was just standing there or moving in a straight-line path if a dribbler altered directions and then ran into them?

Forget LGP; each player is still entitled to a legal spot on the court.

You missed my point also, Nevada. You don't almost always(99%) call it on the defender. You call each situation individually depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it's incidental contact with no call; other times, the foul could be on either player.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Even when the dribbler moves outa his path and runs/brushes into a defender who hasn't altered their straight-line path? Somehow, I really doubt your D1 friends would call that one on the defender. Not if they were any good anyway.

You'd really call a foul on a defender who was just standing there or moving in a straight-line path if a dribbler altered directions and then ran into them?

I can't speak for them, but every indication that I've had from them makes me believe that, yes, the assignors and conference coordinators want the call made that way. What I would call isn't really an issue since I am not on the floor for any D1 games, but I guess if I got there, I would do as they wanted.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Forget LGP; each player is still entitled to a legal spot on the court.

That is certainly true in the NFHS game, but as I wrote above it is NOT the case in the NCAA.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You missed my point also, Nevada. You don't almost always(99%) call it on the defender. You call each situation individually depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it's incidental contact with no call; other times, the foul could be on either player.

Again, I can't say for sure because I don't work that level of ball, but from what I hear 99% of the time that is the way those guys and gals call it up there. It doesn't really matter whether we agree with it or not. Certainly no one is consulting me!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is certainly true in the NFHS game, but as I wrote above it is NOT the case in the NCAA.

We might need to make a distinction between Men's and Women's basketball. I know this is a sensitive issue for many, but there is a difference in many philosophies and contact is one of them. Having attended a couple of camps personally that D1 Men's assignors run, I do have a little insight on what they told us. I have never heard of this being a definite foul. I do remember officials being credited for not calling cheap foul calls on defensive players when they did not initiate contact.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again, I can't say for sure because I don't work that level of ball, but from what I hear 99% of the time that is the way those guys and gals call it up there. It doesn't really matter whether we agree with it or not. Certainly no one is consulting me!

I do not work that level either. I may one day have a shot, but only time will tell. From what I have learned in attending camps and working with D1 officials at HS camps, I have not heard any one say this needed to be called. Also, the OPer tried to suggest that a "certain part of the country" used this philosophy and have benefited and got to the NBA. Well that is not so true anymore. The system that was used in the ACC and SEC is no longer. Both conferences had completely different supervisors (because of some scandal in one case). So the NBA friendly mechanics and philosophies do not apply like they used to.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Rut,
My comment that you just quoted was in the context of a defender lying on the floor and the offensive player trips over him. It was about that specific play and the AR the NCAA provides for it stating that this is a blocking foul. That's all I was saying to JR there. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have never heard of this being a definite foul. I do remember officials being credited for not calling cheap foul calls on defensive players when they did not initiate contact.

That's my understanding too.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I can't speak for them, but every indication that I've had from them makes me believe that, yes, the assignors and conference coordinators want the call made that way.

Well, I've been told the complete opposite, also including conversations with assignors and conference coordinators. They want each call to be decided on it's own merits, and it's never automatically anything.

Just gonna have to disagree on this one.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

This is the same thing I hear from guys who work in the ACC. And when I attend camps where ACC refs are observing I always make that call. And I lean towards making that call in my JuCo games.

However, in my HS games I am more apt to pass on the play if I feel the defender did nothing wrong.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This is the same thing I hear from guys who work in the ACC. And when I attend camps where ACC refs are observing I always make that call. And I lean towards making that call in my JuCo games.

However, in my HS games I am more apt to pass on the play if I feel the defender did nothing wrong.

In the women's college game they want this called on the defense.

[REFVA]

By the explanation of the poster, I would not have called it. Yet I can only imagine the defender was probably riding the offensive player and mostly likely the contact might have not been incidental. Yet keep in mind incidental contact if the offense was not put at a disadvantage. which in this case it sound like the offense lost the ball. I would have liked to see the play, Positioning as always means a lot. seeing from different angles will defenitely give you a better call.

Originally Posted by REFVA

By the explanation of the poster, I would not have called it. Yet I can only imagine the defender was probably riding the offensive player and mostly likely the contact might have not been incidental. Yet keep in mind incidental contact if the offense was not put at a disadvantage. which in this case it sound like the offense lost the ball. I would have liked to see the play, Positioning as always means a lot. seeing from different angles will defenitely give you a better call.

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

I do agree with a previous poster who said its much easier to explain the foul than the no-call.