Casebook vs. real life

[ChuckElias]

The forum is so slow that I was looking through old threads tonight. I came across a discussion of a particular case play: A1 jumps to attempt a try. B1 fouls A1. The official sounds his/her whistle. Before returning to the floor, A1 then charges into B2 who has legal guarding position.

I saw this exact play happen on the last night of camp yesterday. The official called just the shooting foul against B1, obviously. But I had forgotten about it and it happened exactly as it's described in the case book. Jeez, I wish they'd called both fouls. That would've made a good camp story.

[rainmaker]

So what did the evals say about calling the shooting foul only?

[ChuckElias]

I don't know if anything was said. It was the penultimate game of the night and I'm not even sure they were being observed anymore.

Ok, one more story about camp. Again, I'm not sure you'll find it funny, but here goes. To tell you the story, I have to tell you this story first. Two years ago at this same camp, in my last game of the camp, I was the C in transition. No real pressure in the backcourt. The dribbler is bringing the ball up, defended by one guy. I'm moving upcourt with the play, the T has the backcourt count and our Lead is on the endline in the frontcourt. Since there's no pressure, I turn for a second to see if there's a matchup on my frontcourt block. When I turn back (literally 1.5 seconds), the dribbler is on the floor and the defender has the ball. No whistle from the T, I didn't see anything. Tweet, here's a whistle from the L on the endline. He looks at the T and me, like, "Do I really have to take this?" At the next break, the T says, "I'm glad you grabbed that", etc. So now every time I see that ref, I hear a lot of abuse about making sure I have a L who pays attention in transition, blah, blah, blah.

Ok, fast forward to this year. That same ref is working the game I talked about at the beginning of the thread. So after the game, he comes off the court, and I go up to him and say, "Vinnie, what the he!! are you doing on this court?!?!" He gets this look of absolute panic on his face. "What do you mean?"

I said, "It's the last game of camp. What if I needed you on court 4 to save my @$$?!?!" This look of relief came over his face and he looked at me like, you son of a. . .

It was pretty funny for 10 pm on the 5th day of camp.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

No real pressure in the backcourt. The dribbler is bringing the ball up, defended by one guy. I'm moving upcourt with the play, the T has the backcourt count and our Lead is on the endline in the frontcourt. Since there's no pressure, I turn for a second to see if there's a matchup on my frontcourt block. When I turn back (literally 1.5 seconds), the dribbler is on the floor and the defender has the ball. No whistle from the T, I didn't see anything. Tweet, here's a whistle from the L on the endline.

Just a couple of inevitable questions Chuck.

1) You have a T who can't referee a one-on-one matchup?

2) The L is looking into backcourt? Once you turned back, all 3 refs were apparently looking into backcourt. Who was watching the other 8 players?

Z

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by zebraman

1) You have a T who can't referee a one-on-one matchup?

He was a newbie who apparently just froze on the whistle. Your brain says, "Hey, you can't do that!", but for some reason, no air makes it into the whistle.

2) The L is looking into backcourt? Once you turned back, all 3 refs were apparently looking into backcourt. Who was watching the other 8 players?

I think it was a peripheral kind of thing. He saw the guy go down and since nobody else had a whistle, he came up with it. I probably should've done the same thing, but since I didn't actually see it, I hesitated.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I probably should've done the same thing, but since I didn't actually see it, I hesitated.

You can't call what you don't see. Trying to do so is just foolish. What if the dribbler had merely slipped and fallen?

As C I would not have been looking at the 1 v 1 in the backcourt. As T I would not want my C looking at the 1 v 1 in the backcourt. Need I say how I feel about the L looking there?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

The forum is so slow that I was looking through old threads tonight. I came across a discussion of a particular case play: A1 jumps to attempt a try. B1 fouls A1. The official sounds his/her whistle. Before returning to the floor, A1 then charges into B2 who has legal guarding position.

I saw this exact play happen on the last night of camp yesterday. The official called just the shooting foul against B1, obviously. But I had forgotten about it and it happened exactly as it's described in the case book. Jeez, I wish they'd called both fouls. That would've made a good camp story.

When you say that A1 charged into B2, did any of the officials signal the foul?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

When you say that A1 charged into B2, did any of the officials signal the foul?

No. They signalled and assessed only the foul against B1. But A1 clearly charged into B2's torso.

[Mwanr1]

chuck: what would you have called? Would this be a false double foul? This situation is very similar to 4.19.9 Sit A in the casebook.

[ChuckElias]

I'm 99% sure that I would only have called the shooting foul as well. I only mentioned it b/c it's the first time I've actually seen the play happen exactly as it is in the casebook. Drive to the basket, obvious foul during the shot, and then obvious charge.

If you were to call it strictly by the book, then it would indeed be a false double foul. Assess both fouls and penalize them in the order in which they occured. A1 would shoot 2 FT's with no one on the lane, and then Team B would have a throw-in at the closest spot.

[Mark Dexter]

It does seem like a bit of a cop-out, but the easiest thing is probably to do what this crew did - just penalize the foul on A1.

Of course, if (for example) T called the shooting foul, then L (who is deaf and didn't hear the T's whistle) calls the player control, I think you have to have a false double foul.

[Jimgolf]

I'm having a hard time visualizing this play. How could B2 have legal guarding position on A1, if B1 was guarding A1? What am I missing?

Also, since A1 was fouled, isn't it possible the charge into B2 was caused by the contact? How would you call that?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I'm having a hard time visualizing this play. How could B2 have legal guarding position on A1, if B1 was guarding A1? What am I missing?

Also, since A1 was fouled, isn't it possible the charge into B2 was caused by the contact? How would you call that?

LGP can be obtained by any defensive player, not just the 1 who happens to be guarding.

Usually that's the thinking, the foul on A1 caused the subsequent contact and is ignored.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I'm having a hard time visualizing this play. How could B2 have legal guarding position on A1, if B1 was guarding A1? What am I missing?

Also, since A1 was fouled, isn't it possible the charge into B2 was caused by the contact? How would you call that?

If B1 whacked the shooter on the arm, LGP isn't relevant in any way re: that foul. And....whether B1's contact deflected A1 into B2 is another judgement call completely.