Here is another situation

[REFVA]

After doing a game over the weekend and not handling it properly with the coach mouthing off. I took a different stance last night in the same age 14U group, different team. The game was a little physical, but under control. On a fast break, A1 breaks away and goes in for a layup, while ball is on the cylinder, B1 grabs the net. basket goes in, I give B1 a technical for grabbing the net. After the game I caught some hell from some Fanboys of the loosing team, which was B's team parents. they felt we called the games too seriously and tight. The game as I stated was close. Team evenly matched. Do you guys think that calling a summer AAU league to the letter of the rule books is too strict. Keep in mind if you read my other post "what would you do" where coach mouthing off I wanted to work on my mechanics, my rule interpretation, positioning improving my game. I guess damn if you do and damn if you don't. I didn't care what the fanboys were saying, But wanted to hear from you guys..

Please some feedback..

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by REFVA

After doing a game over the weekend and not handling it properly with the coach mouthing off. I took a different stance last night in the same age 14U group, different team. The game was a little physical, but under control. On a fast break, A1 breaks away and goes in for a layup, while ball is on the cylinder, B1 grabs the net. basket goes in, I give B1 a technical for grabbing the net. After the game I caught some hell from some Fanboys of the loosing team, which was B's team parents. they felt we called the games too seriously and tight. The game as I stated was close. Team evenly matched. Do you guys think that calling a summer AAU league to the letter of the rule books is too strict. Keep in mind if you read my other post "what would you do" where coach mouthing off I wanted to work on my mechanics, my rule interpretation, positioning improving my game. I guess damn if you do and damn if you don't. I didn't care what the fanboys were saying, But wanted to hear from you guys..

Please some feedback..

I think we (referees) get in trouble when we let summer league/tournament games get out of control. We don't call enough fouls and we tend to be lazy, "it is just a summer league game." I applaud you for taking the approach you did. Where I live we work all our summer league games with three person crew and we also work on our mechanics and our overall officiating. Summer time basketball is a great time to work on your game and get better, not to screw off and look like jag.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RonRef

I think we (referees) get in trouble when we let summer league/tournament games get out of control. We don't call enough fouls and we tend to be lazy, "it is just a summer league game." I applaud you for taking the approach you did. Where I live we work all our summer league games with three person crew and we also work on our mechanics and our overall officiating. Summer time basketball is a great time to work on your game and get better, not to screw off and look like jag.

I am going to have to partly disagree with you on this. You can call everything and games can get out of hand. Many summer leagues do not have the same rules or consequences involved. Summer leagues are a mixed bag of rules and expectations. Not all coaches approach the game the same and the players do not approach the game the same. I tend to call more during the summer and games still get out of hand. I think we need to stop thinking calling more is going to change the way players and coaches react. You can all everything and if a kid knows he is not going to foul out and realizes that no one will remember much of what happens during the summer, you still can have games get out of hand.

Peace

[deecee]

I completly disagree that we let summer games get out of control because we don't call enough fouls or get lazy. Like JR said most summer leauge coaches aren't real coaches -- they dont know squat about coaching or the game. Most kids are there just for participation and when the season starts 80% of them wont be on a HS team because they aren't that good.

Now some refs are just lazy but that is expected as they are just in it for the money -- however for most its not laziness thats the prolem its doing many games that just make it tiring. This last weekend I stretched myself out too thin (i usually dont work more than 3 games maybe 4 a day). But I had 4 games start at 8 and 3 start at 130 and i was 1 late for the 130 game and 2 almost dead because of these god darn Southern California gyms with no ventillation. The point is bad basketball cannot be made better with more foul calls.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by REFVA

After doing a game over the weekend and not handling it properly with the coach mouthing off. I took a different stance last night in the same age 14U group, different team. The game was a little physical, but under control. On a fast break, A1 breaks away and goes in for a layup, while ball is on the cylinder, B1 grabs the net. basket goes in, I give B1 a technical for grabbing the net. After the game I caught some hell from some Fanboys of the loosing team, which was B's team parents. they felt we called the games too seriously and tight. The game as I stated was close. Team evenly matched. Do you guys think that calling a summer AAU league to the letter of the rule books is too strict. Keep in mind if you read my other post "what would you do" where coach mouthing off I wanted to work on my mechanics, my rule interpretation, positioning improving my game. I guess damn if you do and damn if you don't. I didn't care what the fanboys were saying, But wanted to hear from you guys..

Please some feedback..

As far as the T, what purpose did it serve? Did the player just swat at the net? Did they pull up on it? I was not there and just don't know what good it does for the game. As the ball went in, all they did was slow the ball from being made live for their own team. Part of officiating is using good common sense. If you are using these AAU games to "work on mechanics, rule interpretation, positioning and improving your game," the calls that have been discussed don't equate.

Do what you want, but when it comes to working higher levels of basketball, blind letter of the law will only earn you the title of "book referee" and really won't help you reach your goals.

[rainmaker]

The thing to do in summer, I think, is to try to work to the more strict end of the acceptable style of reffing in your area. What I mean is, you don't want to necessarily be the most strict ref in the city, but maybe the third or fourth most strict. Being firm, and consistent, does help keep control of any game that can be controlled (Rut is right that sometimes your best effort is "irrelevant"), and even if the kids or the coaches complain some, you're better off being firm, as long as it's the same for both teams. But you don't want to be a complete tight-azz, if everyone else in your area is basically letting everything go. You have to fit in to some extent.

As far as your specific call when the kid grabbed the basket, I think I'd have let it go, unless he was doing a pull up. Even during the season, unless you've been told specifically otherwise, I think you can afford to let a lot of basket contact go, as long as the ball goes through, and as long as it's not grandstanding or playing around. But who you should really ask would be your assignor, or association rules interpreter. They're the ones who "call the shots" in your area, and whose rules you need to follow most closely.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by REFVA

After doing a game over the weekend and not handling it properly with the coach mouthing off. I took a different stance last night in the same age 14U group, different team. The game was a little physical, but under control. On a fast break, A1 breaks away and goes in for a layup, while ball is on the cylinder, B1 grabs the net. basket goes in, I give B1 a technical for grabbing the net. After the game I caught some hell from some Fanboys of the loosing team, which was B's team parents. they felt we called the games too seriously and tight. The game as I stated was close. Team evenly matched. Do you guys think that calling a summer AAU league to the letter of the rule books is too strict. Keep in mind if you read my other post "what would you do" where coach mouthing off I wanted to work on my mechanics, my rule interpretation, positioning improving my game. I guess damn if you do and damn if you don't. I didn't care what the fanboys were saying, But wanted to hear from you guys..

Please some feedback..

1.) My opinion is that summer league games, especially AAU, require MORE game control out of the officials than do regular season contests. Therefore, if the game warrants it, I have no problem using the rulebook to crack down on the behavior problems.

2.) Some questions about your particular play:
Could you please specify what you mean by the underlined part?
Is the ball ON/touching the ring or is it merely ABOVE the ring IN the imaginary cylinder?
Lastly, was this 2-man or 3, and were you Lead, C, or Trail on this play?

FWIW, I think that I would have called the T as well.

[REFVA]

2.) Some questions about your particular play:
Could you please specify what you mean by the underlined part?
Is the ball ON/touching the ring or is it merely ABOVE the ring IN the imaginary cylinder?
Lastly, was this 2-man or 3, and were you Lead, C, or Trail on this play?

It was 2 man, I was trail. I had better view of the play than the lead did. He came to me and said, I was waiting for that call. "if you hadn't called it I would have"

[ChuckElias]

My personal preference is to work summer games as if they were regular season games. I make exceptions for partners who don't want to do every switch, and other minor things. (Last week, I did a game in which one team was down to 4 players due to an injury; we allowed the teams to play 4-on-4.)

But as far as dealing with coaches, or the way the game is called, I call it as if it were #1 vs. #2 teams in the 3rd week of February. Just me.

[johnnyrao]

I'm not sure if this is a technical foul or not. Rule 10-3-4 says that "a player shall not grasp either basket during the time of the official's jurisdiction...". I can not find anyplace in Rule 4 where the "basket" is defined. Rule 4-6-1 says it is basket interference when a player "touches the ball or any part of the basket (including the net) while the ball is on or within either basket."

My take on it is that since the rules committee put "including the net" in parentheses in 4-6-1, then the net is normally not considered a part of the basket, and therefore it is not a technical foul to grab the net.

In the original post I think the correct call is basket interference. Since the ball went in then no call is correct, but I really don't think the rules support a technical foul in this situation. Anyone have any other thoughts?

[johnnyrao]

Okay, I just answered my own question. Rule 1-10-1 does say that the net is considered part of the basket, so I am wrong above and you could call a technical foul for grabbing the net. However, in the original post it still leaves basket interference as a possible call, which I would probably call.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

Okay, I just answered my own question. Rule 1-10-1 does say that the net is considered part of the basket, so I am wrong above and you could call a technical foul for grabbing the net. However, in the original post it still leaves basket interference as a possible call, which I would probably call.

Evry time I've seen a play where the defensive player grabs the net, BI is usally the call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

Rule 4-6-1 says it is basket interference when a player "touches the ball or any part of the basket (including the net) while the ball is on or within either basket."

...

In the original post I think the correct call is basket interference. Since the ball went in then no call is correct, but I really don't think the rules support a technical foul in this situation. Anyone have any other thoughts?

1. Good that you answered your own question about the net being part of the basket. Now you will always know that one.

2. As far as the BI call goes, now you understand why I asked REFVA these questions earlier in the thread! Unfortunately, he only answered the last one. So right now, we just don't know.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2.) Some questions about your particular play:
Could you please specify what you mean by the underlined part?
Is the ball ON/touching the ring or is it merely ABOVE the ring IN the imaginary cylinder?
Lastly, was this 2-man or 3, and were you Lead, C, or Trail on this play?

Until REFVA responds and tells us exactly where the ball was when the player grabbed the net, we can't say if BI should have been called or not.
However, we do know that it is a technical foul in either case. If the ball was ON or within the basket, then calling BOTH BI and a T is correct. If the ball was above the ring and not touching it, then the T is still correct, and BI would only be called if the grasping of the net pulled down the movable ring and it contacted the ball prior to returning to its normal position.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

Okay, I just answered my own question. Rule 1-10-1 does say that the net is considered part of the basket, so I am wrong above and you could call a technical foul for grabbing the net. However, in the original post it still leaves basket interference as a possible call, which I would probably call.

B-I is meaningless, since the ball went in. If the kid does a chin up, call a T. If he swipes the net, let it go. Anywhere in between takes judgment.


This has been your Blinding Flash of the Obvious (BFO) for the day.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

B-I is meaningless, since the ball went in. If the kid does a chin up, call a T. If he swipes the net, let it go. Anywhere in between takes judgment.


This has been your Blinding Flash of the Obvious (BFO) for the day.

Adam,
While what you are saying about BI is fine in terms of the effect upon the game, you know that it is not the rules book answer. If jonny is looking for that, then we need to tell him that the ball becomes dead when a BI violation is committed and whether the ball goes in or not doesn't matter. Points will either be awarded or cancelled according to the violation.