Ever happen?

[mopar60]

I was looking over POE for a camp I am going to attend next week. In reference to Sporting Behavior, I was wondering if any of you have ever seen a coach get a T for treatment of his own players and for what?

I have heard a coach swear at one of his own JV aged girls before that is why it came to mind. (Actually he got tossed not a longtime after that for mouthing off to official).

Where would you as an official draw the line in this regard?

[Raymond]

I know someone who officiated a D3 JV game in which the coach was T'd up for cursing at and putting his hands on his own player.

I have asked two D1 refs (both with ties to the Midwest) about this scenario or something similar to it. The first one I asked is a 2nd year mid-major D1 official and he asked his supervisor about it and his response was pretty much "Could you imagine giving Bobby Knight a technical for cursing out his own player?". Second guy I asked is a veteran Big Ten official and he literally rolled his eyes and laughed at my question, saying that he would note it in his game report, but that's about it.

I, working strictly at the HS and JuCo levels, would probably ask the coach to calm down. If very audible cursing were involved I think I would be obligated to 'T' for unsporting behavior.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by mopar60

I was looking over POE for a camp I am going to attend next week. In reference to Sporting Behavior, I was wondering if any of you have ever seen a coach get a T for treatment of his own players and for what?

I have heard a coach swear at one of his own JV aged girls before that is why it came to mind. (Actually he got tossed not a longtime after that for mouthing off to official).

Where would you as an official draw the line in this regard?

I have seen plenty of coaches go crazy on their own players and I would initially ignore them. But if he is cursing out loud and throwing things around, I would have a nice chat with him.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mopar60

I was looking over POE for a camp I am going to attend next week. In reference to Sporting Behavior, I was wondering if any of you have ever seen a coach get a T for treatment of his own players and for what?

I have heard a coach swear at one of his own JV aged girls before that is why it came to mind. (Actually he got tossed not a longtime after that for mouthing off to official).

Where would you as an official draw the line in this regard?

It is, according to the rules, not acceptable to use inappropriate language to any player. That said, in reality the older the players, the more leeway you give the coach regarding their own players. I would consider the T as carefully as I would giving a T to a team for fan behavior - it should be used very sparingly, and probably only after other things have been tried to correct it.

A long time ago, I was working a 5th and 6th grade girls game in a small-town grade school gym, with probably 10 parents in the stands. The home coach was trying to get one of his kids to trap in the corner, so his player ran over to the offensive player and ended up knocking her off the court. It was not pre-meditated in any way, just a clumsy, 5th grade girl play. I called the foul, and the coach asked for a TO. He then proceded to really lay into this kid, yelling things like, "How could you do that?!? I taught you better than that!!", and many other things at a high volume. It was a very uncomfortable TO, and I wondered if I should T the coach. But, I didn't, because after all, he was just yelling at his own player, right? Since then, I figured out if that exact scenario happens again to me again, it's an easy T at that level, especially with the Fed. emphasis on sportsmanship. At the HS varsity level and above, I would probably ignore it unless there are curse words being thown about at a high enough volume that most people in the gym can hear it. Then I might go over after the TO and remind the coach about his/her responsibilty as a teacher, and since he/she is a representive of the school they should remember the emphisis on sportsmanship.

[mick]

Originally Posted by mopar60

I have heard a coach swear at one of his own JV aged girls before that is why it came to mind. (Actually he got tossed not a longtime after that for mouthing off to official).

Where would you as an official draw the line in this regard?

mopar60,
I have warned a coach that he is "becoming a distraction"; he apologized and kept it down.
mick

[Nevadaref]

At the HS level or below, you issue the technical foul. That is what the NFHS wants and the HS game is an extension of the classroom. The coach has to be a teacher in that environment and conduct himself accordingly.

Asking NCAA officials about this for guidance is useless. They operate in a different environment. NCAA basketball has become a business. The schools use it as a moneymaker, not as a teaching experience and the last thing that they care about is language used by their coaches.

Sadly sportsmanship is fading away quickly at the D1 level and the focus on money is to blame.

The best advice that I could give is to not act like a college official in a HS game, act like an NFHS official. Save conducting yourself as a college official for when you are in an NCAA game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

At the HS level or below, you issue the technical foul. That is what the NFHS wants and the HS game is an extension of the classroom. The coach has to be a teacher in that environment and conduct himself accordingly.

Maybe where you work, but not everyone would agree that is the only action. I would check with your local assignor for guidance if you have to call this. My personal opinion is to ignore this unless everyone in the gym can hear the coach. Then just have a quick word and move on. Do not penalize the kids because a coach cannot control themselves for a moment with his/her own team.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Asking NCAA officials about this for guidance is useless. They operate in a different environment. NCAA basketball has become a business. The schools use it as a moneymaker, not as a teaching experience and the last thing that they care about is language used by their coaches.

Sadly sportsmanship is fading away quickly at the D1 level and the focus on money is to blame.

If someone is going to a college camp, these are the very people that are going to give some guidance. Not everyone is just working HS and depending on the level of this camp, you better listen to the people that have been working at the higher levels. BTW, D1 officiating sets the trend for what happens at other levels of college officiating and HS officiating as well.

Do you really think the editor of the NF Basketball Rulebook is not influenced by college officiating?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The best advice that I could give is to not act like a college official in a HS game, act like an NFHS official. Save conducting yourself as a college official for when you are in an NCAA game.

I think that is terrible advice. First of all you do not know what kind of camp that mopar60 is going to. Even the one HS camp I am attending this summer has several D1 officials influencing the way officiating goes at the camp and what is taught at that camp. Also this camp is run by the head of basketball officials in the State of Illinois (and he is a former D1 official). Secondly what starts at the college level tends to rolls down hill in many situations. Of course not all things come from the college ranks, but many of the philosophies and practices are being plucked right from the college ranks (no bird-dogging, table side foul switching and team control signal and rules just to name a few). And I can tell you the way I communicate with coaches and players is directly from the college philosophy and what I have learned at college camps. I have never had a single HS assignor give a damn about what I or others do as it relates to a college philosophy when calling a game. This might be also why I and other officials who work college tend to work further and further in the post season with a college officiating background and quicker as compared to the HS only official. Please do not take this as a personal attack, I just think what you are saying is really bad advice and totally inaccurate.

Peace

[mopar60]

I thank you all for your input, I have no intentions of ever going past high school level so I believe Nevadaref's advice would pertain to my sitch. I also agree with JRutt because I too believe college ball has little to do with building character and self confidence in student/athletes as opposed to making money, today.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by mopar60

I thank you all for your input, I have no intentions of ever going past high school level so I believe Nevadaref's advice would pertain to my sitch. I also agree with JRutt because I too believe college ball has little to do with building character and self confidence in student/athletes as opposed to making money, today.

I don't know what you expect to get out of the camp you're going to (learn? move up?) but IMO the best thing you can do is to ask the camp personel their opinion. I bet the answers you get back will look like this:

1. Absolutely unacceptable, I respect an official who has the guts to T this

2. Absolutely unacceptable, I respect officials who are smooth enough to defuse this quietly

3. None of your business.

I'm somewhere between 2 & 3 myself.

[Stripes33]

I was working a freshman game a couple years ago when Team A is up 25 at halftime. We start the second half and Team B scores the first 12 points. Coach from Team A requests 30 second time-out and just goes on a profanity laced tirade at his players. I wait until the huddle breaks and I let him know that's unacceptable behavior and it will cost him. WHACK! He agreed and we moved forward. The funny thing about it was that a parent thanked me after the game as well.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Stripes33

I was working a freshman game a couple years ago when Team A is up 25 at halftime. We start the second half and Team B scores the first 12 points. Coach from Team A requests 30 second time-out and just goes on a profanity laced tirade at his players. I wait until the huddle breaks and I let him know that's unacceptable behavior and it will cost him. WHACK! He agreed and we moved forward. The funny thing about it was that a parent thanked me after the game as well.

I'm not saying what you did is wrong or right. But I'm wondering if the goal is to stop this behavior why wait until he's done? Why not go into the huddle & ask him to knock it off, then T him if he gets nasty with you?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I'm not saying what you did is wrong or right. But I'm wondering if the goal is to stop this behavior why wait until he's done? Why not go into the huddle & ask him to knock it off, then T him if he gets nasty with you?

Dan, I not saying what you said is right or wrong. But, why try to show up the coach in his or her huddle. I (imo) think Stripes33 took the right approach under the situation.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Dan, I not saying what you said is right or wrong. But, why try to show up the coach in his or her huddle. I (imo) think Stripes33 took the right approach under the situation.

Why do you need to show up the coach?

Walk over to the huddle, stand behind the coach and ask him quietly to keep it down.

(Read my other post, this is an example of my #2.)

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

if the goal is to stop this behavior why wait until he's done? Why not go into the huddle & ask him to knock it off, then T him if he gets nasty with you?

Kind of scary, but this was my first thought as well.

One of us better knock this off pretty quick.

[Nevadaref]

I'll let the NFHS write my response to Rut's comments for me. As I wrote in my first post there is a big difference between the NCAA and NFHS and what is desired from the officials. Rut gave you the way to handle it AT THE NCAA LEVEL. Usually I think that Rut expresses practical advice that helps officials, but in this particular case I have to disagree. Furthermore, since he called my thoughts "really bad advice and totally inaccurate," I'm compelled to demonstrate that for the NFHS level he is completely WRONG. (Of course, he won't acknowledge it!)

Here is the direct quote from the 2004 NFHS Rules Book. I didn't write a single word of this. The NFHS Rules Committee wrote all of it. I'm only highlighting some parts.

"2004-05 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
...
4. Specific unsporting acts. The committee is concerned about the following specific unsporting acts. Coaches, players and officials must pay particular attention to these areas:
...
C. Inappropriate language. The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. Each group has a responsibility to the game and to each other to demonstrate civility and citizenship.
The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches' bad language. Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse. Officials are not exempt either. Inappropriate references to players or coaches are not acceptable. Game administrators must also pay particular attention to fans. A game ticket is not a license to abuse."

Now would you rather follow what the NFHS says or Rut's personal opinion?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My personal opinion is to ignore this unless everyone in the gym can hear the coach. Then just have a quick word and move on. Do not penalize the kids because a coach cannot control themselves for a moment with his/her own team.

Shouldn't NFHS officials should go out and follow what that NFHS POE says? Checking with your local assignor or handling it the D1 way may get you more games, but you have to admit that you are failing to uphold the civility and citizenship values which are at the core of HS sports. If you are okay with that that is your business. But to use Rut's words, "I think that is terrible advice." I prefer to do what I know is right and I don't need to check with anyone to determine that.

Just shows that not everything which filters down from college and the pros is good for the HS game.