Travel?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

In case play 4.44.3SitB, hasn't A1 traveled as soon as he touched the dropped ball?

That was my point.

Yes, he's traveled but the Fed differentiates between dropping the ball (intentionally) and fumbling it (unintentionally). That's why tmp44's play is not like any case book play, as it's a fumble, not an intentional release of the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yes, he's traveled but the Fed differentiates between dropping the ball (intentionally) and fumbling it (unintentionally). That's why tmp44's play is not like any case book play, as it's a fumble, not an intentional release of the ball.

Yup, one's covered and the other one isn't. I realize that by inference you certainly can make a case for legitimizing the fumble as being legal. I'd like to see a definitive ruling though that covers both situations equally; a ruling that would take some of the "judgement" out of the call- re: fumble vs. deliberate drop. Anything to make the call easier to make and cut down arguments...

[TADW_Elessar]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, one's covered and the other one isn't.

Are you sure it isn't?
Under NCAA rules, recovering a fumble is legal. If you think it was not a fumble (unintentional) and the player had already dribbled, then you have a double dribble violation.


As Nevadaref and BktballRef rightly pointed out, you can't commit a travelling violation if you are not holding the ball in your hand(s). Ever.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by TADW_Elessar

Are you sure it isn't?
Under NCAA rules, recovering a fumble is legal. If you think it was not a fumble (unintentional) and the player had already dribbled, then you have a double dribble violation.


As Nevadaref and BktballRef rightly pointed out, you can't commit a travelling violation if you are not holding the ball in your hand(s). Ever.

NCAA 4-66-5

Art. 5. After coming to a stop when neither foot can be the pivot foot:

a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;

b. Neither foot shall be lifted, before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

A.R. 39. Is it traveling when a player (a) falls to the playing court while holding the ball; or (b) gains control of the ball while on the playing court and then, because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the player passes or starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet?

RULING: In (a), yes, because it is virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot when falling to the playing floor. In (b), no. The player may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a timeout. Once the player has the ball and is no longer sliding, he or she may not roll over. When flat on his or her back, the player may sit up without violating. When the player puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to touch the ball, it also is traveling. When a player rises to his or her feet while holding the ball, it is traveling. When a player falls to one knee while holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.

[TADW_Elessar]

When the player puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to touch the ball, it also is traveling.

This new learning about American rules amazes me, indeed, but that's not the case we were talking about, is it?
Anyway, the player commits a traveling violation the moment he touches the ball, which does not wholly contradict what I was saying earlier (even if "touching" is not exactly the same as "holding").

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TADW_Elessar

1) Are you sure it isn't?
Under NCAA rules, recovering a fumble is legal. If you think it was not a fumble (unintentional) and the player had already dribbled, then you have a double dribble violation.


2) As Nevadaref and BktballRef rightly pointed out, you can't commit a travelling violation if you are not holding the ball in your hand(s). Ever.

1) Can you cite an NCAA rule or AR that will back up that statement?

2) Ever? DanRef just cited an NCAA rule that shows how a player can be called for traveling without holding the ball. The comparable NFHS cite is case book play 4.44.5SitB. In that case play, you can also have traveling without holding the ball, as the other case that I cited before- 4.44.3SitB- states also. Thart's 3 situations right out of the rule books showing situations where traveling can be called on a player for something that he did while not holding the ball.

[TADW_Elessar]

1) Can you cite an NCAA rule or AR that will back up that statement?

"Section 66. Traveling
Art. 1. Traveling occurs when a player holding the ball moves a foot or both feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits described in this Rule."
(by the way, why is "travelling" misspelt there? )

DanRef just cited an NCAA rule that shows how a player can be called for traveling without holding the ball.

Sure, but it rather seems a quite specifical situation, an exception, so to speak. Maybe a rule that was introduced following some kind of strange play. Anyway, the player in that case has control of the ball. A player who fumbles does not.

In the case of a fumble, the only violation you can possibly call is a double dribble. (NCAA 9-7-1, but also see 4-29-2)

This may also be interesting (from NCAA rulebook):
"A.R. 38. A1 attempts to catch the ball while running. A1 fumbles the ball and succeeds in securing it before it strikes the playing court. A1 then begins a dribble, taking several steps between the time A1 first touched the ball until catching it. RULING: There has been no violation provided that A1 released the ball to start the dribble before lifting the pivot foot from the playing court after catching the ball."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TADW_Elessar

"Section 66. Traveling
Art. 1. Traveling occurs when a player holding the ball moves a foot or both feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits described in this Rule."

NCAA rule 4-66- 4(b)-TRAVELING states "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot, the pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble". If a player does so, such as an airborne player who has dropped the ball after jumping, then that player has committed a traveling violation when he touches the ball again, not a double dribble violation as you stated in another post.

Both NCAA and NFHS rules are clear about an airborne player deliberately dropping the ball. What isn't as clear is whether that also applies to an airborne player that fumbles the ball and then subsequently recovers it.

The case play that you cited at the bottom of your last post isn't relative in any way. Apples and oranges....and different rules covering the apples and oranges.

[TADW_Elessar]

NCAA rule 4-66- 4(b)-TRAVELING states "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot, the pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble". If a player does so, such as an airborne player who has dropped the ball after jumping, then that player has committed a traveling violation when he touches the ball again, not a double dribble violation as you stated in another post.

Yes, but the traveling violation occurred when he lifted the pivot foot while still having the ball in his hands.
The official will want to wait in order to see whether the player passes the ball or actually dribbles, but the violation had already occurred.

Also, 4-18-3 reminds us that:
"the ball may be batted into the air, provided that it is permitted to strike the playing court one or more times before the ball is touched again with either hand." (which would be a double dribble violation, not travelling).

Anyway, I was thinking it's funny because we both agree it is a violation (it is also under FIBA rules, which I am more familiar with) and would call it.
Still, we don't agree about which kind of violation it is