Blowout Officiating

[Jerry]

I've gotta go with Mick too. It's not an official's job to determine what else to do during a "blowout". The losing team always has the option to "call it quits" and stop the game. By letting some violations "go"; while calling others, is treading on thin ice from both a philosophical and safety standpoint. While human nature wants us to go with the underdog . . . as objective officials, that's not our business. Players need to learn how to lose. It's more important they learn what the rules of the game are.

It's not your fault that one team is getting beaten by a wide margin. It could be your fault if one person is injured because you let a foul slide by; or frustration mounts because you don't call a violation that you know occurred.

[Gary Brendemuehl]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Hey Gary, I think you know pretty much what she's talking
about, we've all seen it and a lot of it was covered
as an NF POE last year. Gripping the ball on the top or
side, either with the hand (big boys) or by holding
it between the hand & forearm (littler guys) during a
dribble is to be considered a dribbling violation. Most
often accompanied by the up-on-your-toes-suspended-
animation-fake-move that is so popular these days, which
is where the "steering" comes in. You can actually buy
videotapes that teach this move.

I know that a hand on the side of the ball is legal and that gripping the ball, pinning it to your body or forearm is not. I don't know what action constitutes steering (it can not be what was stated in the orginal post which was having the hand on the side of the ball), which is what I wanted to find out.

[Tim Roden]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I have to go back to what Mick said. I think we do the game a disservice when we do not do these things. Who cares if the clock is running or not. Believe it or not, you do not choose whether it does or not, the players do. If they cannot keep the ball inbounds, the clock will not run. But do not drastically change your foul calls or your violation calls, just because you have a blow out. Coaches will respect you more if you call the same game. When you change things, it confirms what they already think about us. That we are playing favorites or they are getting screwed. Finish the game yes. Do what you can to keep the game moving, but do not change calls or give the benefit of the doubt to anyone. When that 40 point lead because a 15 point lead and you are a few 3 pointers away from making it is a single digit lead, you do not want them to blame you. They will anyway, but do not give them ammo.

Peace [/B]

J. I think we are on the same page but not speaking the same language. The exception might be in the area of favortism. I want to help the losing team where I can but at the same time, I don't want to give them anything. I have gone overboard in the past and almost got burned by a comeback. But you also don't want to judge too quickly that this is going to be a blowout. I worked one game that both teams had double digit leads and the game finished with a 2 point difference. Every time I thought we would have a blowout we got a good game. I have had assignor after assignor tell me we need to help the losing team.

On the subject of keeping the clock going. I understand that is not always posible. That is why I qualified it as a goal. But when I can keep it going I will. Not calling the travel or the carry. And getting the ball back in play quickly after a whistle. I don't want to prolong a 50 point blowout. I especially don't want to do that when it is a JV game and the fans are bored and want to see the varsity. I don't ignor solid fouls but I do judge a lot more plays as incidental contact. Especially when the team ahead has stronger players and can play through the contact. I don't want to be passing out a lot of "and ones" to them. I hope you can agree.

[Stripes130]

If steering was illegal, then the "around the back dribble" would be too.

[rainmaker]

What I'm calling "steering" is a carry in the sense that the hand does not hit, throw or bat the ball down, but sort of guides it along with the amount of contact being too long to be legal. A lot of this is borderline and should be let go, and I do let it go. But when it helps the dribbler get past a defender in legal guarding position, I call it. Although it's more difficult to "steer" than to carry with the hand under the ball, it still happens. The most obvious move that utilizes "steering" is the spin move where the ball moves around the body, propelled by a hand on the side. Even if the hand never slides down to that certain angle under the ball, it's still a carry. This "steering" move can be used in less obvious ways, as described above.

[Just Curious]

Shifting gears a little.... Or putting a spin on the topic.... There have been games where the winning coach refuses to pull off a full court press... even with a 20, 30, 40 point lead.... How do you handle this sitch... I'm sure some of you have tried talking with those coaches... Any success stories out there?
jc

[Tim Roden]

How you handle a press during a blowout can be controversial. First, determine that it is a blowout. Then know who is out there. This could be the second stringers just trying to learn how to do a press. Now if the score is 50 to 6 in the fourth period and the first team is out there pressing, then I know I have a problem of sportsmanship by the winning coach. I have gone to the point of determining that any attempt at a steal is a foul. I don't recommend it on a consistent bases. Only on the extream case you see above. Most coaches know that once they get a 20 point lead they can drop back. I'd just be a little more agressive in finding a foul.

[mick]

Originally posted by Just Curious
Shifting gears a little.... Or putting a spin on the topic.... There have been games where the winning coach refuses to pull off a full court press... even with a 20, 30, 40 point lead.... How do you handle this sitch... I'm sure some of you have tried talking with those coaches... Any success stories out there?
jc

jc,
Success story? Sure.
Get in.
Get done.
Get out.
Workin' with a bad coach ain't much different than workin' with a jerk partner.
mick

[Just Curious]

I can't say that I have had much success with such senarios.... One memorable moment came when Team A was ahead by some 40 points and still in the first half.
I stopped the game, and as I approached A's bench,I asked A's coach to come out onto the floor, out of earshot of his bench, players, and fans and said politely.. "Coach, I know it's none of my business but with the lead you have, don't you think you could pull your press off?" The coach said, "Your right ref.... It's none of your business." So I used Tim's approach.
In my profession, I deal with people from 13 to 70+, the rich, the poor, those that think they're God's gift to the world, and those trying to find their way up from the bottom of barrels. Communication is the key... and ya need a different key for everyone. I just don't have all the keys yet. But I'm still looking!
Chuck

[mick]

Originally posted by Just Curious
I can't say that I have had much success with such senarios.... One memorable moment came when Team A was ahead by some 40 points and still in the first half.
I stopped the game, and as I approached A's bench,I asked A's coach to come out onto the floor, out of earshot of his bench, players, and fans and said politely.. "Coach, I know it's none of my business but with the lead you have, don't you think you could pull your press off?" The coach said, "Your right ref.... It's none of your business." So I used Tim's approach.
In my profession, I deal with people from 13 to 70+, the rich, the poor, those that think they're God's gift to the world, and those trying to find their way up from the bottom of barrels. Communication is the key... and ya need a different key for everyone. I just don't have all the keys yet. But I'm still looking!
Chuck

Chuck,
Your coach's response, I would guess, is very common.
If I have to deal with ignorance, I dispose of it as quickly as possible, or ignore it.
I am not gonna change a coach's attitude with a brief coaching clinic to him any more than he is gonna change mine with his brief reffing clinic to me. Why even try?
mick


[Edited by mick on Aug 5th, 2001 at 08:01 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl

When did a hand on the side of the ball become palming?

2000-2001 NFHS POE

Palming: ...Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.

Just because the palm is on the side of the ball, that doesn't meant the dribble is legal.

Nice job, Juules.

Originally posted by Stripes130
If steering was illegal, then the "around the back dribble" would be too.

Guess what hotshot! In many cases, it is. It's just that most officials are too chickensh*t to call it.

Know what else? Most spin moves are traveling.

Originally posted by Just Curious
"Coach, I know it's none of my business but with the lead you have, don't you think you could pull your press off?"

That was your mistake, Chuck. Don't ask him anything. Simply whistle two or three fouls on his team while they're pressing. He'll get the message quickly enough. I know some will object to that but there's just no sense in humiliating a less talented team. I don't concern myself with this too much until late 3rd or early 4th quarter. Most coaches are smart enough to pull the press off by then anyway.

[Gary Brendemuehl]

Originally posted by rainmaker
What I'm calling "steering" is a carry in the sense that the hand does not hit, throw or bat the ball down, but sort of guides it along with the amount of contact being too long to be legal.

4-15-1 also includes the word "push" in addition to bat and strikes. The only time the "amount of contact is too long to be legal" is when the ball comes to rest in one or both hands.

[Quote]
Although it's more difficult to "steer" than to carry with the hand under the ball, it still happens. The most obvious move that utilizes "steering" is the spin move where the ball moves around the body, propelled by a hand on the side. [Quote}

Acutally it's not more difficult and it happens all the time. You "steer" the ball going behind the back, between the legs, when crossing over, and even when dribbling straight forward. Nothing illegal about any of this.

Even if the hand never slides down to that certain angle under the ball, it's still a carry.

Nonsense! Unless the dribbler palms (grabs it with one hand) or turns the hand past vertical, the ball can not come to rest in the hand. If so, then what force is counteracting the force of gravity?

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl

Originally posted by rainmaker
What I'm calling "steering" is a carry in the sense that the hand does not hit, throw or bat the ball down, but sort of guides it along with the amount of contact being too long to be legal.

4-15-1 also includes the word "push" in addition to bat and strikes. The only time the "amount of contact is too long to be legal" is when the ball comes to rest in one or both hands.

Although it's more difficult to "steer" than to carry with the hand under the ball, it still happens. The most obvious move that utilizes "steering" is the spin move where the ball moves around the body, propelled by a hand on the side. [Quote}

Acutally it's not more difficult and it happens all the time. You "steer" the ball going behind the back, between the legs, when crossing over, and even when dribbling straight forward. Nothing illegal about any of this.

Nonsense! Unless the dribbler palms (grabs it with one hand) or turns the hand past vertical, the ball can not come to rest in the hand. If so, then what force is counteracting the force of gravity?

What I'm reading in this exchange is that you both seem to
saying the same thing, only she's not saying it with your
words (or voice), Gary.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl

Nonsense! Unless the dribbler palms (grabs it with one hand) or turns the hand past vertical, the ball can not come to rest in the hand. If so, then what force is counteracting the force of gravity?

You sound like a coach. Did you not read anything in the POE from last year? Please read the bold face print below. It plainly states that the hand does not have to come under the ball for it to be palmed.

2000-2001 NF POE
Palming
Offensive players "palming" the ball continue to gain a tremendous advantage over defensive player(s). Emphasis is not only to be given to the dribbler's hand position, but also the activity of the ball while the dribble is occurring. "Palming" not only occurs while the palm is facing "skyward," but can also occur while the palm is facing the floor. The key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has "come to rest" (4-15-4 b). Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.

[Gary Brendemuehl]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

2000-2001 NFHS POE

Palming: ...Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.

Just because the palm is on the side of the ball, that doesn't meant the dribble is legal.

Nice job, Juules.

Yes, I read the POE also. And I note that it refers to the the ball "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. It did not say "when the player steers the ball" nor did it refer to the length of time that a player's hand is in contact with the ball. Although I do agree that the longer the hand is in contact with the ball , the more likely it is that the ball came to rest. I put the terms "steering" and "the hand was in contact with the ball too long" into the same category as "over the back" A dribble is illegal because the ball came to rest in the hand, not because it was steered.