Coach managment

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by deecee

Just acknowledge a coach that you hear his concerns and will address them when best fit. Also unless you are 100% sure dont tell a coach that -- say coach from my angle thats what I saw -- he could have a different opinion than you and thats fine.

If you know a coach is irate at you give him room and stay opposite for a while. Once he cools down if you feel address his concerns then (you dont have to unless he asks nicely).

If you have to tell a coach something like not to roam to far up and down the sideline just remind him nicely once or twice if hes coaching and not harrasing (if hes harrasing one warning is enough).

I like to give coaches as much rope as needed for them to hang themselves -- by the time they get one they deserve it and everyone knows it. Now there are catch phrases that will cost a coach faster than cyndi lauper was popular and those usually revolve around the personal stuff.

And never, never, never sell out your partner to a coach. Never. Never. Someday it may be you.

[Kostja]

Some of these answers are no brainers, but very valuable ones, so to say Someone wrote that good coaches wouldn't try to complain about every call or put a lot of pressure on the referees. That's where I can't agree. In the past two years I met a lot of very experienced and knowledgeable coaches while refereeing on a semi-professional and professional level here in Europe. Almost all of them where focusing on coaching their teams most of the time, but I think every single one of them tried to get me or one of my partners at one point in the game and then it wasn't about asking a question and wanting to hear about a different angle or something like that. These situations were about giving the ref a hard time, get inside his head, or at least see to which of the above mentioned categories the ref belongs (hard a**, entertainer, or whatever).

A very popular move was to question a close call (block-charge or something like that) in a way that one could not ignore the coach, and as soon as you moved towards him to handle the situation coach turned around and walked away from you ... What is the referee supposed to do? Follow the coach who will probably pretend he can't hear the ref and finally give him a surprised "What do you want from me?" look with the ultimate power shrug of his shoulders while looking at his assistant coach for help, or just turn away and let it go? Both ways, you don't look very good in this situation, which is of course what the coach tried to achieve. I think it is part of the game, coaches try to get to know their refs, they try to influence our decision making and this does not only apply to bad coaches.

From my own experience a couple of years ago I know that at least in highschool in Canada referees were treated with more respect then in youth basketball here in Europe. Would you say this is also true for College basketball? And how would you react to the situation described above?

Cheers,
Kostja

[TADW_Elessar]

Having experienced the situation Kostja described, I prefer not to move towards a coach to explain a call, ever. I report the foul first (this usually allows him to cool down a bit), then I either give a brief answer (it may be something like "he doesn't have to be stationary" in a block/charge situation) while already moving towards my new position or I ignore him completely.

Unless there are 5000 people in the gym, you should be able to talk at a distance... and it is advisable to do so

[Snake~eyes]

Biggest problem I see with officials is they ignore the coach. If the coach is asking a question then answer, talk to him. If you ignore him he's just going to get even more mad. Take care of your business.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Kostja

Some of these answers are no brainers, but very valuable ones, so to say Someone wrote that good coaches wouldn't try to complain about every call or put a lot of pressure on the referees. That's where I can't agree. In the past two years I met a lot of very experienced and knowledgeable coaches while refereeing on a semi-professional and professional level here in Europe.

They may be "very experienced" and/or "knowledgeable" but if they complain about every call, they aren't "good".

[Kostja]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

They may be "very experienced" and/or "knowledgeable" but if they complain about every call, they aren't "good".

They don't complain about every call, they pick their spots, only some of them pick too many
By the way, I wouldn't say a coach, who doesn't know the subtleties of every rule that's ever been written and therefore starts complaining, is necessarily a bad coach. He just doesn't qualify as a referee coach

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kostja

A very popular move was to question a close call (block-charge or something like that) in a way that one could not ignore the coach, and as soon as you moved towards him to handle the situation coach turned around and walked away from you ... What is the referee supposed to do? Follow the coach who will probably pretend he can't hear the ref and finally give him a surprised "What do you want from me?" look with the ultimate power shrug of his shoulders while looking at his assistant coach for help, or just turn away and let it go? Both ways, you don't look very good in this situation, which is of course what the coach tried to achieve. I think it is part of the game, coaches try to get to know their refs, they try to influence our decision making and this does not only apply to bad coaches.

I will say that you do not have to explain every call. Just because a coach complains, does not mean you have to give an answer or answer right away. If a coach really wants to know what you called, they will ask later.

Originally Posted by Kostja

From my own experience a couple of years ago I know that at least in highschool in Canada referees were treated with more respect then in youth basketball here in Europe. Would you say this is also true for College basketball? And how would you react to the situation described above?

We also must understand that what works in one area might not work in another area. I know having worked inner-city schools, there is a different way you have to talk to coaches than a suburban school. Then there is a totally different way to talk to participants if you are dealing with a rural school. Now this is just in my state, I know when I see teams that are from outside of the state, they act differnet as well. And everything I just said was related to HS, college is another story as well.

Peace

[Official99]

I did an AAU U-17 tournament in Las Vegas Easter weekend where every coach thought they were the best coach and knew everything there was to know about basketball. Most coaches also thought their players were the best players the sport of basketball has ever seen. Although this was a high profile Div 1 scouting tournament, very few players will really go on to play big games in Div 1 hoop. I have never seen so many T's assessed ever than in this tournament, but it was stressed to us before the tournament that a technical foul is merely a penalty for a violation of the rules - which it is.

I think referees - especially newer referees - tend to forget that a technical foul is just that, a penalty. It should not be used as a personal attack to get back at a coach or a player, but used when a coach or a player violates the rules.

When I took the IAABO course a while back, game management was stressed as a critical component of refereeing. And although I agree game management is very important, I also agree that if a coach's behavior and/or statements are worthy of a technical foul; then give it to him/her – regardless if it is early in the game, late in the game or before the game even starts. With the exception of the three (four in the 06-07 season) NFHS rule book reasons for warnings – throw in plane violations, huddling by either team and contact with the free thrower, interfering with the ball following a goal and water on the court – no where in the book does it say we as referees are to issue warnings to coaches and players for misbehaving and breaking the rules. When we as referees start issuing warnings that the rules say don’t exist, we have just bent the rules set forth by the rules committee and have then put ourselves in a weak position for any sort of valid response to a coaches concern – you as a referee already broke the rules once.

Some people call me a stickler and last year I ejected one coach and issued a handful of well deserved T's, but I am still one of the most requested referees among coaches in the area. Coaches remember referees and the calls they make. Expect a coach to remember you, but if you are consistent in your calls, they know that if they break the rules (good coaches know the REAL rules) they will receive the penalty.

I know a lot of referees out there don’t agree with my grasp on technical fouls and I am sure there will be many comments posted in response to my post. To end, I have copied a piece of the IAABO Midseason Interpreter’s Memorandum from Peter Webb (who by the way was recently inducting into the HS Basketball Hall of Fame - Congrats Peter!):

Enforce the rules, all rules. That is what fair play is all about. Officials don't set aside the travel rule, why set aside the disconcertion rule, the player appearance rule, the behavior rule, grasping the ring rule, etc.? When those rules are not met by players or coaches, apply the penalty. Do it now, don't fret, don't put it on hold and don't worry about it. Eliminate the issue, the game will be better for it. While being "good" (by warning, ignoring, etc.) to that particular team ask what about the opposing team who is adhering to the rule(s)?

There are only three rules-approved warnings and they are delay warnings - boundary plane, huddle or contact with free thrower and interfering with the ball after a goal. The rules do not provide for any other warnings. Although officials may think they are “helping,” “using common sense” or “being reasonable,” a warning can upset coaches and players. Warnings can upset opposing players and coach. When warning, the official is setting aside a rule that is expected to be enforced. Seldom can a warning be FAIR as there are two teams.”

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Official99

I know a lot of referees out there don’t agree with my grasp on technical fouls

I'm not sure who would disagree with your "grasp" of saying that T's are merely a penalty, not a weapon. Officials who use T's that way don't last very long.

There are only three rules-approved warnings and they are delay warnings

This is no longer true, btw. . .

"Beginning next season in high school basketball, only one warning will be given for any of the four delay situations before a technical foul is assessed, including the newly approved delay situation for water on the court following a
time-out."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Official99

I think referees - especially newer referees - tend to forget that a technical foul is just that, a penalty. It should not be used as a personal attack to get back at a coach or a player, but used when a coach or a player violates the rules.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement. But to be fair anytime a player or coach wants to question judgment calls (which happens all the time) we have the right under the rules to give a technical foul. Now to be real official use a great deal of judgment and do not call as many Ts as the rules allow. So I am not quite sure how officials are getting back at coaches and players when we use great restraint and not call anything.

Originally Posted by Official99

When I took the IAABO course a while back, game management was stressed as a critical component of refereeing. And although I agree game management is very important, I also agree that if a coach's behavior and/or statements are worthy of a technical foul; then give it to him/her – regardless if it is early in the game, late in the game or before the game even starts. With the exception of the three (four in the 06-07 season) NFHS rule book reasons for warnings – throw in plane violations, huddling by either team and contact with the free thrower, interfering with the ball following a goal and water on the court – no where in the book does it say we as referees are to issue warnings to coaches and players for misbehaving and breaking the rules. When we as referees start issuing warnings that the rules say don’t exist, we have just bent the rules set forth by the rules committee and have then put ourselves in a weak position for any sort of valid response to a coaches concern – you as a referee already broke the rules once.

There is a difference between an "official warning" that goes into the book and a warning for conduct which might not be that bad. Sorry, we should give warnings to try to prevent further action when warranted. It is not good common sense to just give out Ts for a minor and hardly understood infraction. And if you want to work higher levels, you better learn to communicate to players when appropriate and I have never heard a college assignor say the things you claim. I could even say the very same with HS assignors as well.

Originally Posted by Official99

Enforce the rules, all rules. That is what fair play is all about. Officials don't set aside the travel rule, why set aside the disconcertion rule, the player appearance rule, the behavior rule, grasping the ring rule, etc.? When those rules are not met by players or coaches, apply the penalty. Do it now, don't fret, don't put it on hold and don't worry about it. Eliminate the issue, the game will be better for it. While being "good" (by warning, ignoring, etc.) to that particular team ask what about the opposing team who is adhering to the rule(s)?

You are right we should not set aside a rule, but we should not be so technical that there is no room for judgment or common sense. I know I do not call travels that no one can clearly see. I try to call what is obvious and violations and fouls that most people can see took place. I am not going to nit pick a rule like the coaching box rule and give a T for a coach with a toe on the line. That is not good officiating in my opinion and it is not going to make you popular the higher you go up the latter.

Originally Posted by Official99

There are only three rules-approved warnings and they are delay warnings - boundary plane, huddle or contact with free thrower and interfering with the ball after a goal. The rules do not provide for any other warnings. Although officials may think they are “helping,” “using common sense” or “being reasonable,” a warning can upset coaches and players. Warnings can upset opposing players and coach. When warning, the official is setting aside a rule that is expected to be enforced. Seldom can a warning be FAIR as there are two teams.” [/I]

It is fair if you are giving both teams the same benefit of the doubt. You have every right to let a coach know they are getting out of hand so when you do give them a T, they know they were already close to the line. If a coach complains about the first call you make and by rule you give them a T, you will not be around very long as an official. And the rules committee wants us to enforce the spirit of the rules, not the letter. It is in their literature in both NF and NCAA rules.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is a difference between an "official warning" that goes into the book and a warning for conduct which might not be that bad. Sorry, we should give warnings to try to prevent further action when warranted.

You are right we should not set aside a rule, but we should not be so technical that there is no room for judgment or common sense.

It is fair if you are giving both teams the same benefit of the doubt. You have every right to let a coach know they are getting out of hand so when you do give them a T, they know they were already close to the line. If a coach complains about the first call you make and by rule you give them a T, you will not be around very long as an official. And the rules committee wants us to enforce the spirit of the rules, not the letter. It is in their literature in both NF and NCAA rules.

Agree.

Most good, experienced officials imo know when to warn and when to "T". You can't really set definitive rules either. Warnings are very appropriate in some situations; in other situations, a "T" without a warning might be appropriate also. You simply do what you think is warranted and necessary in each individual situation.

Of course, what you don't do is warn and then not follow through if someone chooses to ignore that warning.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Sorry, we should give warnings to try to prevent further action when warranted.

If I can just comment on Rut's point - a very well respected referee once said that the purpose of a technical foul was to stop bad behavior, and if you could stop it without having to give the technical, you were just that much ahead.

[Official99]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

If I can just comment on Rut's point - a very well respected referee once said that the purpose of a technical foul was to stop bad behavior, and if you could stop it without having to give the technical, you were just that much ahead.

I like that comment a lot!

When I said there are only three reasons to issue warnings, that is what I meant reasons. Yes, collectively there is only one warning to be issued, but three (and now four this coming season) reasons to issue the warnings.

I like everyones comments and expected this much response. I appologize if I don't respond right away to all of them. Please remember, the last two sections of my post is taken from a memo distributed by IAABO.

SnakeEye's comment about talking to coaches is probably the best comment posted yet. Most coaches don't want anything from an official than to be heard. I refer back to Las Vegas this past April. I had a coach who just wanted to be heard. All I had to do was listen to him and he smiled and I was able to walk away. I very rarely had to say anything with him and never had to warn him or give a T because I listened.

Thanks again.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But to be fair anytime a player or coach wants to question judgment calls (which happens all the time) we have the right under the rules to give a technical foul.

I don't seem to recall reading that rule. Maybe it's time for me to have a refresher. Questioning judgment doesn't per se prove unsporting conduct, IMHO. Did I miss something?

If you're talking about someone questioning your judgment, rather than the call, I might see that. But questioning a call in an appropriate manner is part of the game. Obviously, your judgment and a player or coach's judgment will differ because of different training and experience. As long as they are not unsporting about it, I think they should have the right to question your call, as long as they are not trying to show you up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I don't seem to recall reading that rule. Maybe it's time for me to have a refresher. Questioning judgment doesn't per se prove unsporting conduct, IMHO. Did I miss something?

If you're talking about someone questioning your judgment, rather than the call, I might see that. But questioning a call in an appropriate manner is part of the game. Obviously, your judgment and a player or coach's judgment will differ because of different training and experience. As long as they are not unsporting about it, I think they should have the right to question your call, as long as they are not trying to show you up.

By strict reading of NFHS rules, a head coach is definitely not allowed to question anything. A head coach is allowed, by rule to coach- period.

Rule 3-1-2 says that the captain is his/her teams representative, and is allowed to ask for an rules interpretation or get essential information. There is no mention of a coach anywhere in the rules being allowed to question anything, unless it's one of the listed errors. Captains certainly aren't allowed to ever question the judgement involved in a call either.

From an old POE in the 2001-02 book -- "Coaches must stay within the confines of the optional coaching box and are ONLY permitted to give instructions to players and substitutes. Coaches using the optional coaching do not have implied permission to roam the sidelines, attempt to influence the decision of an official, or conduct themselves in an unsporting manner." Iow, by rule, the head coach is not allowed to ask questions; he has to get his captain to do that.

Of course, in real life it's a whole lot different. The point is that a coach questioning an official's judgement sureasheck is leaving hmself open to get whacked.