Coach managment

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I don't seem to recall reading that rule. Maybe it's time for me to have a refresher. Questioning judgment doesn't per se prove unsporting conduct, IMHO. Did I miss something?

If you're talking about someone questioning your judgment, rather than the call, I might see that. But questioning a call in an appropriate manner is part of the game. Obviously, your judgment and a player or coach's judgment will differ because of different training and experience. As long as they are not unsporting about it, I think they should have the right to question your call, as long as they are not trying to show you up.

I think he might be talking to what we love to refer to around here as the "ABS" (accumulated bullsh!t) T. What if a coach questions, in an appropriate manner, every other call? At some point they've gone beyond being respectful and have become a distraction, and therefore will need to be addressed.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

By strict reading of NFHS rules, a head coach is definitely not allowed to question anything. A head coach is allowed, by rule to coach- period.

Rule 3-1-2 says that the captain is his/her teams representative, and is allowed to ask for an rules interpretation or get essential information. There is no mention of a coach anywhere in the rules being allowed to question anything, unless it's one of the listed errors. Captains certainly aren't allowed to ever question the judgement involved in a call either.

From an old POE in the 2001-02 book -- "Coaches must stay within the confines of the optional coaching box and are ONLY permitted to give instructions to players and substitutes. Coaches using the optional coaching do not have implied permission to roam the sidelines, attempt to influence the decision of an official, or conduct themselves in an unsporting manner." Iow, by rule, the head coach is not allowed to ask questions; he has to get his captain to do that.

Of course, in real life it's a whole lot different. The point is that a coach questioning an official's judgement sureasheck is leaving hmself open to get whacked.

Maybe this is just semantics, but questioning a judgment call, "Why was that a block and not a charge?" and questioning judgment "What are you, nuts?" are two different things to me. One is asking for clarification, and one is unsportsmanlike.

It seems to me that if officials are using their judgment for a call (rather than on a clear-cut call like a player stepping out of bounds) then they almost have an obligation to explain when asked.

I think the distinction is in whether the coach is attempting to influence the officiating, or legitimately asking for clarification. Whether this is unsportsmanlike conduct is up to the officials' judgment, but I can guarantee that T'ing up coaches for asking for explanations in a reasonable manner will put them back on the list for freshman games.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Maybe this is just semantics, but questioning a judgment call, "Why was that a block and not a charge?" and questioning judgment "What are you, nuts?" are two different things to me. One is asking for clarification, and one is unsportsmanlike.

Jim, the rules simply do not allow coaches to question judgement calls in any way, including both instances listed above. As Rut has already said(and I agree with his statement), if they do so, then they certainly do run the risk of getting whacked. Now whether they actually do get whacked or not when they question a judgement call is simply up to the tolerance level of each individual official.

I was just pointing out what the rules actually say in regards to what coaches are legally allowed to do- and basically, under the rules, they are just supposed to coach. If they do think that we misapplied or misinterpreted a rule, they can then get their captain to ask us for an explanation. Question judgement though? Never- by rule, but different in real life.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Official99

SnakeEye's comment about talking to coaches is probably the best comment posted yet. Most coaches don't want anything from an official than to be heard.
Thanks again.

Which was said repeatedly starting at post #3.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I don't seem to recall reading that rule. Maybe it's time for me to have a refresher. Questioning judgment doesn't per se prove unsporting conduct, IMHO. Did I miss something?

If you're talking about someone questioning your judgment, rather than the call, I might see that. But questioning a call in an appropriate manner is part of the game. Obviously, your judgment and a player or coach's judgment will differ because of different training and experience. As long as they are not unsporting about it, I think they should have the right to question your call, as long as they are not trying to show you up.

Rule 10-4-1
a: Disrespectfully addressing an official
b: Attempting to influence an official's decision
e: Objecting to an official's decision by rising from the bench or using gestures (Ever seen the travel signal from a coach?)

These take place by at least one coach a game. As officials we do not just take the letter of the law and start throwing out coaches, but we let coaches know they are going too far or there are going down a road they should not. So if tomorrow we wanted to enforce these rules to the letter, then we have the rules at our disposal. I am not advocating that, just pointing out that we have different levels of tolerance and some are going to apply the rules much more strict than others.

Peace

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Rule 10-4-1
a: Disrespectfully addressing an official
b: Attempting to influence an official's decision
e: Objecting to an official's decision by rising from the bench or using gestures (Ever seen the travel signal from a coach?)

Thanks for the citations. To me, these are clearly unsporting conduct, but most coaches probably don't realize that.

[Junker]

Good discussion. The following are my thoughts and have seemed to work well for me in the past. First off, I very rarely initiate a conversation with a coach, let them come to you. About the only time I will initiate a conversation is if I'm having a problem with a player and the player is close to recieving a T. If I get the feeling a coach will respond well, I'll let them know that the player needs to calm down. Secondly, I only answer direct questions. As an earlier post stated a question such as "why was that a block?" is a question I will answer. "What was that!" is not a specific question and I will usually ignore it. Lastly, don't make it a secret when coach has reached his sportsmanship limit. Step back and give the stop sign so that his or her assistants know they need to calm them down. If they run through the stop sign, deal with it. Also, don't go to them durning time outs, even if they beckon you, make them come out on the floor to you (meet them halfway is what I do). Then if the coach is being a problem, everyone will see the T coming and it won't be a big suprise. I think that game management is an ever evolving part of our games. Find what seems to work for you and go with it. It takes time.

[TADW_Elessar]

e: Objecting to an official's decision by rising from the bench or using gestures (Ever seen the travel signal from a coach?)

Like this? (1Mb video)

http://www.filegone.com/x1pm



(from DVD "FIBA guidelines for referee education")

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by TADW_Elessar

Like this? (1Mb video)

http://www.filegone.com/x1pm



(from DVD "FIBA guidelines for referee education")

They were almost as good as the Temptations and Four Tops in concert!