The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 10:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkeii
Hand Checking is a good example. It is NEVER legal, according to the rules, to touch the dribbler.
This statement is false.
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 11:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 446
Holding

Camp I went to this year, the directors were introducting the concept of never calling a hold. Their philosophy...If it's a hold, it's an intentional foul. A hold is not a basketball play. Therefore, even if you have a common foul that you would normally call a "hold," come up with illegal use of the hands or a push, whichever would cover the play more. Thoughts?
__________________
I know God would never give me more than I could handle, I just wish he wouldn't trust me so much.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 11:29am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmp44
Camp I went to this year, the directors were introducting the concept of never calling a hold. Their philosophy...If it's a hold, it's an intentional foul. A hold is not a basketball play. Therefore, even if you have a common foul that you would normally call a "hold," come up with illegal use of the hands or a push, whichever would cover the play more. Thoughts?
Thoughts?

That might just be the dumbest thing that I've heard of coming out of a camp- any camp.

NFHS signal #30 is "HOLDING". NCAA signal #21 is "HOLDING".

Both rule books recognizes holding as a normal, every-day foul. Those camp director/goobers obviously don't believe those rule books. Either that or they've never read them.

Lah me, what will they come up with next?
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 11:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmp44
Camp I went to this year, the directors were introducting the concept of never calling a hold. Their philosophy...If it's a hold, it's an intentional foul. A hold is not a basketball play. Therefore, even if you have a common foul that you would normally call a "hold," come up with illegal use of the hands or a push, whichever would cover the play more. Thoughts?
I'm w/ Jurassic. I've heard some dumb comments coming out of camps, but that one takes the cake. It always cracks me up when a clinicain becomes such a fan of their own that they circumvent the rulebook because they are "smarter."

I have heard that in the last 2 minutes of a closely-contested game, any hold should be a signaled as a hack or a push (because it looks stronger), but I don't buy that either. A hold is a hold is a hold.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 02:17pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkeii
I agree. I cannot understand why officials are told that contact following a good block (or other "good" play) should be ignored.This is, IMHO, the devolution of the sport that has lead to the NBA really not being basketball - it is more of a game played and called for the benefit of the spectators. Don't call travels, don't call contact after good-looking plays, don't call fouls on superstars (but definitely call fouls people have against the superstars), etc. Why have any rules? The NBA, if this devolution continues, could end up playing games And-1 Mixtape style (which, I like - but isn't "basketball" by the rules, which is what the game itself is supposed to be).
This is not an NBA philosophy. This is a Men's and Boy's basketball philosophy at least in the Midwest. And the rules support it. This is what the incidental contact rule deals with. If you call all contact on all blocks, you will never have a block. Very rarely is there ever a one on one block and you are not going to have some contact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkeii
This has worked its way down to the college level already - officials being told to ignore contact after a good block, and every three point shooter getting hit after the release of the ball, just to name a few (I know there is a difference between NFHS and NCAA in terms of what is considered an airborne shooter, but no one seems to ever call the non-shooting foul when a 3 point shooter releases than definitely gets fouled, even "after the shot" - and this happens all the time).
I do not know what game you are calling or who you are calling it with, I see this called quite often where I live and at the college level. One of the things is the shooters flop or emphasis their fall to get a call. When they get run over, this gets called.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkeii
And it is working its way down to the high school level, with officials at camps being told to ignore contact after a good block.

This is a slippery slope...
I can tell you if you live around me and you have a quick whistle on a block where the shooter causes all the contact, you will be relegated to working girls basketball only. You cannot call fouls on a 6'6 player that blocks and 5'6 guard and expect the 6'6 player not to at some point make contact with the little guard. Also I do not see many of these blocks where the little guy does not get knocked down. You cannot just call a foul because someone is big if you ask me. Also this is not s slippery slop because all sports have philosophies and practices that are used and interprets the rules in a certain way. Just like the "area" play in baseball and the holding philosophy in football. I have yet to see a rules committee have any problem with these applications of the rules or try to stop this kind of rules philosophy.

I also think we need to make clear, this was a D1 camp!!! This was not some local HS camp where the clinicians only worked a state final because they hung around long enough. This was with D1 officials as clinicians and league supervisor where his games are on National TV every week. We also must know that D1 coaches know these philosophies and they have no problem with them. If you call this at that level, you will not be there very long and they will find someone that will follow the philosophy. This is not very different than when I worked my very first D1 baseball game, there were things I had to come to up to speed with or I would get run over and soon find myself not working their anymore. I know similar things happen in football because I belong to a football organization where several Big Ten crew chiefs and 3 NFL officials and what they have to do is very different than what we have to do at the HS level. Now where I live also the college influence is heavy and many assignors at the HS level, also assign college assignments and expect similar things from the college level. We are also influenced by the fact that many conferences have players that go to the D1 level or at the very least low level college ball all the time.

I think this also needs to be said. The people at this camp mostly were college only officials. Not many guys here worked more than 5-10 games of HS a year and did not see a personal future for working HS ball. I know I found this unusual from where I live, because even the best college officials where I live work a decent share of HS games and even work deep into the playoffs. The only D1 Men's official that works almost no HS games, he helps assign a HS conference and he expects similar philippics to be applied in that conference or you will not get his recommendation to work varsity to the lead assignor, which can make or break your chance in that conference BTW.

I agree that this is essentially a class of cultures in the officiating world, but depending on where you live you either go along, or sit out at the varsity and higher levels.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 04:04pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
This is not an NBA philosophy. This is a Men's and Boy's basketball philosophy at least in the Midwest. And the rules support it. This is what the incidental contact rule deals with. If you call all contact on all blocks, you will never have a block.

Oh? NFHS case book play 4.19.3SitB says something that's completely different.

And I've seen all kinda fouls called in NCAA D1 games where a clean block was followed by a defender knocking the shooter down or putting him into the basket support. Even seen it in Big 10 games too......

I ain't gonna argue it with you though. Waste of time.....neither one of us will ever convince the other.
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 08:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
goobers
Dont be insultin my man Goob now.....


Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 08:56pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larks
Dont be insultin my man Goob now.....

Ah yes, another Cinci grad makes good.....
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 05, 2006, 05:42pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
I'm doing a college pre-season game about 4 years ago.

Had the same play. I'm T, L had this play. Shot blocked, then contact. Late whistle comes. Shooter lands awkwardly and ends up chipping his tooth.

L said, "I'm glad I had a foul on that play."
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 05, 2006, 07:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Palmyra, VA
Posts: 245
Send a message via AIM to drothamel
There has been some very good advice on this thread. I went to the Dale Kelley Camp in Dallas last year, and a camp in VA later that summer. They were very different camps. "Bring Pants," is very good advice. Perhaps even better is to find out from someone if you need pants or not.

The other, very valuable piece of advice that I will echo is "When in Rome. . ."

Take the Dale Kelley Camp, for instance. If you are a ref who wants to work in one of the MANY college conferences that Mr. Kelley assigns, you do whatever mechanics he wants you to do, period. If you have a major problem with the way he wants the game called, go find work in another conference. Besides getting hired, another good reason to try and incorporate different philosophies into your game is that it makes you a better official. Some of the things I heard at the Kelley Camp were completely opposite of what I heard in VA. While I was in Dallas, I tried to do what they wanted me to do, when I was in VA, I tried to do what they wanted me to do. Now, I can do either one, if I want. It helped make me a better official by opening my mind to different ideas and philosophies about officiating. This is important because I don't want to dismiss something out of hand just because it is something that I don't currently do. It also teaches you to be aware of what you are doing, and how to change some aspect of your game if you want.

One caveat, however, is that don't expect better assignments or more work just because you are doing what your supervisor says. It just isn't that simple; but I can assure you that if you don't do what those people want, you won't be doing anything.
__________________
-RESPECT THE GAME-
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 06, 2006, 06:02am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkeii
But when the rules say a specific kind of contact is illegal, and the officials are told to ignore that kind of contact after a "good" play (which the rules don't define, nor do they ever say "...unless a crowd-pleasing play took place, in which case, ignore the foul..."), they are being told to officiate a game in a way in which the rules never intended.

We have entire committees that write and approve the rules. I'm not saying I agree with every rule out there, but I use them as they are written, and as the cases say we should interpret them, in officiating my games. Just because an official, an assignor, etc, decides they don't like a rule doesn't mean they have the right to just decide to change the game in favor of their opinion, and rewrite the rules for that game in the way they would like to see them written.

I didn't sign up to officiate "me-sketball", or "assignor-sketball" - I signed up to officiate basketball. Basketball, like any game, has rules, and I would think that as officials for a sport, we have an obligation to these rules. I have always said my heirarchy for officiating is "1. Player Safety, 2. Rules, 3. Game flow". If the players play safely for their level, and play within the rules, they will have more game flow than they can handle. If they choose not to stay within the first two areas, they don't get very far into the third.

I have to say, in officiating several sports, I believe Basketball varies the most from game to game. In many sports, the players come in with a pretty good idea of what is legal and what is not, and what they can and cannot do. In basketball, the players have to adapt their entire game strategy to what the refs are calling and not calling that day. This happens to a lesser extent in other sports, but I believe is a major hurdle to the progress of this game. Coaches teach players things to break rules that they know are unlikely to be called, and tell the players to stop doing it if they get called for it - Hand Checking is a good example. It is NEVER legal, according to the rules, to touch the dribbler. Many officials allow players to "tag up" (again, defined in the rules as illegal), or even leave a hand on the dribbler as they are running (again, defined in the rules as illegal). Some officials are picky on this one, many are not. Another example would be the girls in girls games who set up with their heels over the lines or neutral zone blocks - many officials won't warn or call the violation. Some will warn. Very few will call this violation, even though it is well defined in the rules. Another example is the T for going out of bounds that existed for a few years. Very few officials called it, so the rules people changed it to a violation. Who are we to say the group who defined the rules was wrong? But we did - most people refused to call this technical foul.

I think that official use the terms "judgement" and "game management", among others, as excuses for not applying rules they don't think should be applied as they are written and intended. Good game management is not rewriting the rules to match what you would like to see the game be or become - it is officiating a game fairly, keeping everyone safe, and going home at the end feeling that you gave your best. If this includes making calls that are unpopular, so be it - the game is not written for a popularity contest for the officials.

How can you play a game without rules, or with rules that change day to day, game to game, by the person enforcing them?
What we do is not noble. It's a job. Those that hire us, at the end of the day, make the rules. If we call contrary to the instructions of those that hire us, we don't work. I've made that decision (to not work) before, but would I want to go down in flames at the NCAA D-I level over something like this? Nope. Nor will anyone actually IN that position.
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 06, 2006, 06:10am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
This is not an NBA philosophy. This is a Men's and Boy's basketball philosophy at least in the Midwest. And the rules support it. This is what the incidental contact rule deals with. If you call all contact on all blocks, you will never have a block. Very rarely is there ever a one on one block and you are not going to have some contact.



I do not know what game you are calling or who you are calling it with, I see this called quite often where I live and at the college level. One of the things is the shooters flop or emphasis their fall to get a call. When they get run over, this gets called.



I can tell you if you live around me and you have a quick whistle on a block where the shooter causes all the contact, you will be relegated to working girls basketball only. You cannot call fouls on a 6'6 player that blocks and 5'6 guard and expect the 6'6 player not to at some point make contact with the little guard. Also I do not see many of these blocks where the little guy does not get knocked down. You cannot just call a foul because someone is big if you ask me. Also this is not s slippery slop because all sports have philosophies and practices that are used and interprets the rules in a certain way. Just like the "area" play in baseball and the holding philosophy in football. I have yet to see a rules committee have any problem with these applications of the rules or try to stop this kind of rules philosophy.

I also think we need to make clear, this was a D1 camp!!! This was not some local HS camp where the clinicians only worked a state final because they hung around long enough. This was with D1 officials as clinicians and league supervisor where his games are on National TV every week. We also must know that D1 coaches know these philosophies and they have no problem with them. If you call this at that level, you will not be there very long and they will find someone that will follow the philosophy. This is not very different than when I worked my very first D1 baseball game, there were things I had to come to up to speed with or I would get run over and soon find myself not working their anymore. I know similar things happen in football because I belong to a football organization where several Big Ten crew chiefs and 3 NFL officials and what they have to do is very different than what we have to do at the HS level. Now where I live also the college influence is heavy and many assignors at the HS level, also assign college assignments and expect similar things from the college level. We are also influenced by the fact that many conferences have players that go to the D1 level or at the very least low level college ball all the time.

I think this also needs to be said. The people at this camp mostly were college only officials. Not many guys here worked more than 5-10 games of HS a year and did not see a personal future for working HS ball. I know I found this unusual from where I live, because even the best college officials where I live work a decent share of HS games and even work deep into the playoffs. The only D1 Men's official that works almost no HS games, he helps assign a HS conference and he expects similar philippics to be applied in that conference or you will not get his recommendation to work varsity to the lead assignor, which can make or break your chance in that conference BTW.

I agree that this is essentially a class of cultures in the officiating world, but depending on where you live you either go along, or sit out at the varsity and higher levels.

Peace
I officiate about a dozen boys varsity games in Illinois each year (driving down from Wisconsin) and Rut is right about how basketball is called there. It's fast, physical, and fun to work if you aren't whistle happy. That said, I'd call a foul in a heartbeat if contact after a blocked shot put a player in the stands.

It's quite different than the play and the expectations of the officials in rural Wisconsin, where one of the assignors sends out a letter each year reminding officials that most contact should result in fouls being called and that the games are called too loosely for his liking. There my partner and I turn down the advantage/disadvantage meter a bit and everyone (so far) has been happy. You gotta do what the boss wants you to do.

Regional differences abound at the high school level. Good officials become aware of these things very quickly and are able to adapt to those expectations. Again, I find nothing noble about doing what we do. It's a job and those that hire set the guidelines if we want to work for them.
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 06, 2006, 09:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
Regional differences abound at the high school level. Good officials become aware of these things very quickly and are able to adapt to those expectations.
Is it regional, league or division? Or all the above?

High Shool in Ohio breaks up it's schools by divisions for playoff purposes based on enrollment. I think in basketball there are 4 divisions.

In Cincy, I know to some extent differences can be by league but how about by division (school size)? You work the D1 HS leagues, especially in the city league...you turn em loose and make sure they stay inside the lines. To be honest, those are my favorite to work because you WILL break a sweat.

But you go into the country and work some of the smaller schools, it's a different style of play altogether. So I think thats another adjustment to consider.

Back to the play...if the shot is gone and A1 gets blown up, it's a foul....why? In High school, how about airborne shooter?

Now how about shot gone...then contact on the arm and / or torso but A1 is able to return to the floor and play on.....I got nothing....Is it a foul? By exact wording yes but do we all consistently call the game this way? I doubt it whether you are talking about D4 high school or D1 college. Did the contact disadvantage the shooter? That is what I look for.

In both cases....we have a judgement call. At camp last week, one clinician had an interesting take he laid on us that I think applies to these situations.....at some point we all have to develop our own philosophy of what is a foul.

Me personally, I have "grown up" an advantage / disadvantage" type guy. I'll be perfect honest, this philosophy has served me very well in boys and small college and I believe hurt me to some extent in girls and womens. Actually to the point where in girls, I now call a much tighter game than I ever would a boys game regardless of the division.

Bottom line - Contact after the foul shot is the gray area and part of the gig. Lets just hope the folks we work for agree with our "philosophy" and / or lets hope we can adjust to theirs.

Larks
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 06, 2006, 10:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,910
Rich and Larks are right..... officials have to adjust to the level of play. I call a 4A boys game considerably different from a 1A or B boys game. I call girls games different from boys games. At state tournaments, they often want games called even tighter (depending on who the observers are) so another adjustment is required.

At any level, a clean block followed by significant contact will be a foul in my game. A clean block followed by marginal contact is nothing.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 12, 2006, 10:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 139
Heading to camp in Florida tomorrow. Nice to read some of the scenarios yall have already been through.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Big 10 camp lrpalmer3 Basketball 4 Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:09am
A Breath of Fresh Air Alameda Softball 6 Sat Jun 04, 2005 03:04pm
Advice for the Fresh Meat mopar60 Basketball 10 Tue Feb 08, 2005 02:47pm
Fresh game or loss of goodwill ronny mulkey Basketball 6 Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:56am
camp zeke Feedback 1 Fri Apr 14, 2000 02:12pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:16pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1