Fresh From Camp Tidbits....

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Larks

1. Make sure you take your pants

This may be the single best piece of advice we will ever get!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

My only problem is that such statements are applied too broadly. I too typically pass on contact that follows a block...but only to a point. At some point, the contact becomes too substantial to not be a foul. Where that point lies is certainly a topic worthy of debate but such a line should and does exist.

To say a blocker shouldn't be held liable for any contact after a block is analagous to saying a shooter shouldn't be held liable for anycontact after the shot is released...no matter how hard. The NFHS and NCAA have different penalties for this situation but it is called if the conact is enough.

This is why the term is called "judgment." You do not have to agree, but if the right people do not agree with your judgment, you will not get hired. So it really is irrelevant what the NF or NCAA says. Kind of like what happens in football. The NF or NCAA does not give the philosophy as to how to call holding, but if you want to work higher level ball, you use the philosophy that is widely accepted or you stay at home.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why the term is called "judgment." You do not have to agree, but if the right people do not agree with your judgment, you will not get hired. So it really is irrelevant what the NF or NCAA says. Kind of like what happens in football. The NF or NCAA does not give the philosophy as to how to call holding, but if you want to work higher level ball, you use the philosophy that is widely accepted or you stay at home.

Peace

If you had actually understood my post, you'd realize I said exactly the same thing. The original statement made was that if the contact was after a block, it is not a foul...without any consideration of judgement. At every level, there will be some amount of contact, even after the block, that will draw a whistle. It make take a beheading but it exists. The point at which the whistle comes varies from level to level and from assignor to assignor, as I already said, and that is the judgement you're talking about.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

My only problem is that such statements are applied too broadly. I too typically pass on contact that follows a block...but only to a point. At some point, the contact becomes too substantial to not be a foul. Where that point lies is certainly a topic worthy of debate but such a line should and does exist.

To say a blocker shouldn't be held liable for any contact after a block is analagous to saying a shooter shouldn't be held liable for anycontact after the shot is released...no matter how hard. The NFHS and NCAA have different penalties for this situation but it is called if the conact is enough.

I agree. I cannot understand why officials are told that contact following a good block (or other "good" play) should be ignored.This is, IMHO, the devolution of the sport that has lead to the NBA really not being basketball - it is more of a game played and called for the benefit of the spectators. Don't call travels, don't call contact after good-looking plays, don't call fouls on superstars (but definitely call fouls people have against the superstars), etc. Why have any rules? The NBA, if this devolution continues, could end up playing games And-1 Mixtape style (which, I like - but isn't "basketball" by the rules, which is what the game itself is supposed to be).

This has worked its way down to the college level already - officials being told to ignore contact after a good block, and every three point shooter getting hit after the release of the ball, just to name a few (I know there is a difference between NFHS and NCAA in terms of what is considered an airborne shooter, but no one seems to ever call the non-shooting foul when a 3 point shooter releases than definitely gets fouled, even "after the shot" - and this happens all the time).

And it is working its way down to the high school level, with officials at camps being told to ignore contact after a good block.

This is a slippery slope...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

This has worked its way down to the college level already - officials being told to ignore contact after a good block, and every three point shooter getting hit after the release of the ball, just to name a few (I know there is a difference between NFHS and NCAA in terms of what is considered an airborne shooter, but no one seems to ever call the non-shooting foul when a 3 point shooter releases than definitely gets fouled, even "after the shot" - and this happens all the time).

And it is working its way down to the high school level, with officials at camps being told to ignore contact after a good block.

This is a slippery slope...

Jmo, but I think that it might be more a league thing at the NCAA level, and it actually varies from group to group. All college officials sureasheck aren't being told to ignore illegal contact after a good block; I've seen way too many calls to the contrary on tv.

As to the high school level, I'm not really aware of anybody teaching officials to ignore contact. I think that in some cases they might be teaching officials to ignore certain types of contact, but certainly not all contact.

And as for the NBA, I sureasheck agree with you on that league. I don't have a clue what traveling, palming, or a foul,etc. are anymore. It's become unwatchable imo.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I agree. I cannot understand why officials are told that contact following a good block (or other "good" play) should be ignored.This is, IMHO, the devolution of the sport that has lead to the NBA really not being basketball - it is more of a game played and called for the benefit of the spectators. Don't call travels, don't call contact after good-looking plays, don't call fouls on superstars (but definitely call fouls people have against the superstars), etc. Why have any rules? The NBA, if this devolution continues, could end up playing games And-1 Mixtape style (which, I like - but isn't "basketball" by the rules, which is what the game itself is supposed to be).

This is not an NBA philosophy. This is a Men's and Boy's basketball philosophy at least in the Midwest. And the rules support it. This is what the incidental contact rule deals with. If you call all contact on all blocks, you will never have a block. Very rarely is there ever a one on one block and you are not going to have some contact.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

This has worked its way down to the college level already - officials being told to ignore contact after a good block, and every three point shooter getting hit after the release of the ball, just to name a few (I know there is a difference between NFHS and NCAA in terms of what is considered an airborne shooter, but no one seems to ever call the non-shooting foul when a 3 point shooter releases than definitely gets fouled, even "after the shot" - and this happens all the time).

I do not know what game you are calling or who you are calling it with, I see this called quite often where I live and at the college level. One of the things is the shooters flop or emphasis their fall to get a call. When they get run over, this gets called.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

And it is working its way down to the high school level, with officials at camps being told to ignore contact after a good block.

This is a slippery slope...

I can tell you if you live around me and you have a quick whistle on a block where the shooter causes all the contact, you will be relegated to working girls basketball only. You cannot call fouls on a 6'6 player that blocks and 5'6 guard and expect the 6'6 player not to at some point make contact with the little guard. Also I do not see many of these blocks where the little guy does not get knocked down. You cannot just call a foul because someone is big if you ask me. Also this is not s slippery slop because all sports have philosophies and practices that are used and interprets the rules in a certain way. Just like the "area" play in baseball and the holding philosophy in football. I have yet to see a rules committee have any problem with these applications of the rules or try to stop this kind of rules philosophy.

I also think we need to make clear, this was a D1 camp!!! This was not some local HS camp where the clinicians only worked a state final because they hung around long enough. This was with D1 officials as clinicians and league supervisor where his games are on National TV every week. We also must know that D1 coaches know these philosophies and they have no problem with them. If you call this at that level, you will not be there very long and they will find someone that will follow the philosophy. This is not very different than when I worked my very first D1 baseball game, there were things I had to come to up to speed with or I would get run over and soon find myself not working their anymore. I know similar things happen in football because I belong to a football organization where several Big Ten crew chiefs and 3 NFL officials and what they have to do is very different than what we have to do at the HS level. Now where I live also the college influence is heavy and many assignors at the HS level, also assign college assignments and expect similar things from the college level. We are also influenced by the fact that many conferences have players that go to the D1 level or at the very least low level college ball all the time.

I think this also needs to be said. The people at this camp mostly were college only officials. Not many guys here worked more than 5-10 games of HS a year and did not see a personal future for working HS ball. I know I found this unusual from where I live, because even the best college officials where I live work a decent share of HS games and even work deep into the playoffs. The only D1 Men's official that works almost no HS games, he helps assign a HS conference and he expects similar philippics to be applied in that conference or you will not get his recommendation to work varsity to the lead assignor, which can make or break your chance in that conference BTW.

I agree that this is essentially a class of cultures in the officiating world, but depending on where you live you either go along, or sit out at the varsity and higher levels.

Peace

[grizwald]

This might be a dumb question, but who plays in these official's camp games?

I was just curious. Do they run these Ref Camps side by side with camps for HS kids? One side being the Ref Camp the other being the Player's Camp.

Or do they bring in teams to play specifically to let the refs practice and be evaluated?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by grizwald

This might be a dumb question, but who plays in these official's camp games?

I was just curious. Do they run these Ref Camps side by side with camps for HS kids? One side being the Ref Camp the other being the Player's Camp.

Or do they bring in teams to play specifically to let the refs practice and be evaluated?

Most of the time the officials' camps are run in conjunction with HS players and team camps. There may be a few isolated instances where teams and players are brought in for the officials, but most of the camps I've been associated are run where the assingnor supplies some or all of the officials to a team camp, and uses that opportunity to view and critique.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by grizwald

This might be a dumb question, but who plays in these official's camp games?

I was just curious. Do they run these Ref Camps side by side with camps for HS kids? One side being the Ref Camp the other being the Player's Camp.

Or do they bring in teams to play specifically to let the refs practice and be evaluated?

I think it would depend on the camp. Most times it is a bunch of HS teams come to a college so they can be seen and the schools can build relationships with college programs and the coaching staffs can build a relationship with future prospective players. This camp was a "team camp." A lot of the teams were in the area or in some surrounding states for the weekend. Every team had a coach or two and most of the time they left us the hell alone. The teams were there to get playing time and to get better by playing good competition.

Peace