Two scenarios - Page 3

Oz Referee · #31 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 01, 2001, 04:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Hmm, I can't see why #18 is false, maybe I'm not reading
it closely enough. In any case, never put time back on
the clock for a correctable error.

On #22, a player doesn't become airborne until the ball is
released (4-1). For the last second shot to be counted
it must be released *before* time ends (7-7-2a) and finally
at the end of a game only those FTs will be made that impact
the game result, so after the first miss the other 2 are
not tried.

Why would the other free throws not be attempted? Obviously the player is still entitled to the next 2 free throws. I understand that they can not have any impact on this game, but what about points for and against? I have played in several competitions where the final placings for finals have come down to who beat who, and by how much.

Can someone please explain this to a feeble referee?

Brian Watson · #32 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 01, 2001, 06:58pm

A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.

League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can.

Dan_ref · #33 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 01, 2001, 10:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Oz Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Hmm, I can't see why #18 is false, maybe I'm not reading
it closely enough. In any case, never put time back on
the clock for a correctable error.

On #22, a player doesn't become airborne until the ball is
released (4-1). For the last second shot to be counted
it must be released *before* time ends (7-7-2a) and finally
at the end of a game only those FTs will be made that impact
the game result, so after the first miss the other 2 are
not tried.

Why would the other free throws not be attempted? Obviously the player is still entitled to the next 2 free throws. I understand that they can not have any impact on this game, but what about points for and against? I have played in several competitions where the final placings for finals have come down to who beat who, and by how much.

Can someone please explain this to a feeble referee?

NCAA & NF rules agree that FT's are *not* attempted that have no bearing on the game. Play: A up by 3 pts. A1
fouls B1 on a 2 point shot as the horn sounds. No free
throws are attempted because B cannot win. Game over.
Points for & against have no bearing regardless of
tie-breaker procedure.

mick · #34 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 05:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.

League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can.

Brian,

I agree when it comes to high school or CCA ball.

But, I occasionally work an adult Recreation league that goes Fed rules with jewelry allowed and various and sundry uniform incongruencies.

mick

Brian Watson · #35 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 07:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.

League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can.

Brian,

I agree when it comes to high school or CCA ball.

But, I occasionally work an adult Recreation league that goes Fed rules with jewelry allowed and various and sundry uniform incongruencies.

mick

Sorry Mick I was referring to "real" play and not "summer" ball.

When it comes to summer junk just about anything goes and many rules seem to be made up as you go.

Since the original questions were "case book" type examples, I was pretending this was the middle of January.

mick · #36 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 04:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.

League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can.

Brian,

I agree when it comes to high school or CCA ball.

But, I occasionally work an adult Recreation league that goes Fed rules with jewelry allowed and various and sundry uniform incongruencies.

mick

Sorry Mick I was referring to "real" play and not "summer" ball.

When it comes to summer junk just about anything goes and many rules seem to be made up as you go.

Since the original questions were "case book" type examples, I was pretending this was the middle of January.

Our junk ball is in the winter,... I was pretending this was the "middle of January", too.

mick

Oz Referee · #37 (**permalink**) Sun Aug 05, 2001, 05:28pm

OK fair enough, I can see the merit of the system where free throws that can't affect the outcome of a game are not attempted.

Having said that (and again I am a FIBA referee - so my perspective may be different to so other people here) isn't it possible that say Team A is up by 3, fouls B1 on a n attempt on the buzzer resulting in 2 free throws. NCAA rules would not have the player shoot these free throws, so Team A wins by 3.

Now for arguements sake on of the following scenarios occurs:

1. As game ends, Coach A goes of his head and gets a T.

2. Found to be an error on the scorsheet, and Team A was only up by 2 (or 1).

How would you handle this, accoring to NCAA rules? Do you bring the players out of locker rooms to shoot the free throws?

Just curious....

BktBallRef · #38 (**permalink**) Sun Aug 05, 2001, 07:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Oz Referee
OK fair enough, I can see the merit of the system where free throws that can't affect the outcome of a game are not attempted.

Having said that (and again I am a FIBA referee - so my perspective may be different to so other people here) isn't it possible that say Team A is up by 3, fouls B1 on a n attempt on the buzzer resulting in 2 free throws. NCAA rules would not have the player shoot these free throws, so Team A wins by 3.

Now for arguements sake on of the following scenarios occurs:

1. As game ends, Coach A goes of his head and gets a T.

2. Found to be an error on the scorsheet, and Team A was only up by 2 (or 1).

How would you handle this, accoring to NCAA rules? Do you bring the players out of locker rooms to shoot the free throws?

FTs are not attempted unless they would effect the outcome of the game. In these situations, they would be attempted because they could effect the outcome..

Mark Dexter · #39 (**permalink**) Sun Aug 05, 2001, 08:40pm

You wouldn't bring the players out of the locker room, because once the officials approved the final score, the game was over.

Of course, if the T were issued before the officials hit the showers, the shots would be attempted.

BktBallRef · #40 (**permalink**) Sun Aug 05, 2001, 10:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
You wouldn't bring the players out of the locker room, because once the officials approved the final score, the game was over.

Of course, if the T were issued before the officials hit the showers, the shots would be attempted.

As long as the officials have not left the visual confines of the arena, you can most certainly bring players back onto the floor to attempt game deciding FTs.

Brian Watson · #41 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 07:20am

Basically this would become what we would call a cluster. Thankfully, unless a coach walked off the floor, I cannot think of the players being the locker room post game before the officials. If it happened, you would pul them from the locker room (remember that Patriots-Dolphins game last year where they took the players back on the field like a 1/2 after the game "ended"...)

If your sitch happened:
You would shoot the two foul shots.
Then the two T's.
Pray that you do not go into OT.
Run like the wind.

Personaly, unless I was next to the bench when the horn goes off, I am not sticking around long enough to let the coach catch up to me and earn a T. I consider this preventive officiating in some cases and protecting the coach from himself in others.

Mark Dexter · #42 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 07, 2001, 08:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

As long as the officials have not left the visual confines of the arena, you can most certainly bring players back onto the floor to attempt game deciding FTs.

I was referring to the original scenario, in which the score had been approved. Of course, until the score is approved, you can call the team back from the airport gate as far as the rules are concerned.