AAU Fun and a timing question

[ranjo]

I have had a really good AAU season so far - Quality games, quality teams, and coaches who have pretty much left me alone.

Some of that changed during one game this Saturday afternoon and I would like to expand on some of the things that happened.

Both coaches are working us, but in a controlled manner, like questioning out of bounds calls, who the proper shooter was, amount of time put on the clock after a malfunction, and which official may have had a better angle on a particular call. Coaches like that really keep you on your toes in a good way.

The first incident occured when I let some contact go that resulted in a steal. I blew the whistle a little late and the coach was somewhat irate about the late call. He said if there was a foul, I should have blown the whistle as soon as it happened and not when he had a chance at a break away goal. He calmed down when I explained I let the contact go as there was no advantage gained by the contact until the steal occured.

The next thing happened after a foul on a post player - The player walked to the line to shoot two awarded free throws, then grabed his knee and went to the floor. The coach was beckened, came onto the floor, and told his players to help their teamate to the bench. A substitute entered and took the free throws.

I feel the player faked the injury to get a high percentage free throw shooter to take his shots.( It was a one point game at the time) When I talked to my partner about it after the game I told him that since I did not have any history of that particular player or coach doing it before, I was compelled to ere on the side of caution.

Anybody had this happen to them before?

Third incident happened during an overtime period. 1.2 seconds showing on the clock, home team down two points with a throw in from the visitors end line.

Home team inbounds the ball which hits a defender and bounces out of bounds on the sideline. I look at the clock and it still shows 1.2 seconds. The attempted inbound has happened so quickly, I haven't even chopped in the time.

Visiting team coach insists there should be some time taken off the clock. I explain that with a manual timing system there will be some lag in getting the clock started, and that I could not accurately say how many tenths of a second have expired on the throw in.

We keep the 1.2 seconds, the ball is thrown in, a shot taken and missed, visitors win by two.

Would anybody have done it any differently?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ranjo

The next thing happened after a foul on a post player - The player walked to the line to shoot two awarded free throws, then grabed his knee and went to the floor. The coach was beckened, came onto the floor, and told his players to help their teamate to the bench. A substitute entered and took the free throws.

I feel the player faked the injury to get a high percentage free throw shooter to take his shots.( It was a one point game at the time) When I talked to my partner about it after the game I told him that since I did not have any history of that particular player or coach doing it before, I was compelled to ere on the side of caution.

Anybody had this happen to them before?

No. But, there is nothing you can do. If the player or coach says the player is too injured to play, they come out. I doubt the NFHS will ever put the officials in the position of forcing a player claimed to be injured to remain in the game. If it becomes too much of a problem, they'll probably go with a rule that allows the opposing coach to select the FT shooter...of course that player just might pull a muscle on the way to the line.

Originally Posted by ranjo

Third incident happened during an overtime period. 1.2 seconds showing on the clock, home team down two points with a throw in from the visitors end line.

Home team inbounds the ball which hits a defender and bounces out of bounds on the sideline. I look at the clock and it still shows 1.2 seconds. The attempted inbound has happened so quickly, I haven't even chopped in the time.

Visiting team coach insists there should be some time taken off the clock. I explain that with a manual timing system there will be some lag in getting the clock started, and that I could not accurately say how many tenths of a second have expired on the throw in.

We keep the 1.2 seconds, the ball is thrown in, a shot taken and missed, visitors win by two.

Would anybody have done it any differently?

Yes. Since the timer is authorized by rule to start the clock without a signal from the official, there was a timer's mistake (Rule 5-9 and 5-10, from an older book....may be different numbers now).

Count everything when time is winding down. If you use 1001, 1002, 1003 to meter your counts, each syllable (if you phrase it evenly) is 0.25 seconds.

For example, if you have One-Thou-Sand-One-One-Thou-STOP, you have 1.5 seconds.

Remember that official's counts, accurate or not, are official. Of course, accuracy is desireable....make sure your counts (5's, 10's, etc.) are accurate and you can depend on any count you need to apply.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ranjo

I have had a really good AAU season so far - Quality games, quality teams, and coaches who have pretty much left me alone.

Some of that changed during one game this Saturday afternoon and I would like to expand on some of the things that happened.

Both coaches are working us, but in a controlled manner, like questioning out of bounds calls, who the proper shooter was, amount of time put on the clock after a malfunction, and which official may have had a better angle on a particular call. Coaches like that really keep you on your toes in a good way.

Controlled or not this type of thing is not to be tolerated during AAU ball. And the coach had better be smiling if he keeps this up with me during a regular season game. Question an OOB call? Sure, fine, I can live with that. All the other examples you give will be greeted with a stern warning and a quick T if he does not back off immediately.

Originally Posted by ranjo

The first incident occured when I let some contact go that resulted in a steal. I blew the whistle a little late and the coach was somewhat irate about the late call. He said if there was a foul, I should have blown the whistle as soon as it happened and not when he had a chance at a break away goal. He calmed down when I explained I let the contact go as there was no advantage gained by the contact until the steal occured.

See, if you had shut these people up in the first 2 minutes there would have been no need to calm him down with an explanation. BTW, I never explain this call with advantage/disadvantage because it only makes the coach question A/D on every call that goes against him after that. When a coach tells me I made a late call the most I will do is remind him he agrees the call is right since he's only questioning the timing. And I never discuss the timing of a call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Controlled or not this type of thing is not to be tolerated during AAU ball. And the coach had better be smiling if he keeps this up with me during a regular season game. Question an OOB call? Sure, fine, I can live with that. All the other examples you give will be greeted with a stern warning and a quick T if he does not back off immediately.

See, if you had shut these people up in the first 2 minutes there would have been no need to calm him down with an explanation.

Amen.

Letting coaches "work" you ain't part of the game. There's a heckuva big difference between questioning a close call and working the officials just to try and gain an unfair advantage.

Nip it; nip it in the bud.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ranjo

Both coaches are working us, but in a controlled manner, like questioning out of bounds calls, who the proper shooter was, amount of time put on the clock after a malfunction, and which official may have had a better angle on a particular call. Coaches like that really keep you on your toes in a good way.

Randy,

There has to be a point where you tell the coaches they cannot question every call. I had a game this weekend where the coach was great for 3/4 quarters of the game even though his team was behind. He was even chastising his own players whenever they complained about a call.

Then with about 7-8 minutes left his team started going in the tank. He then openly questioned a foul call I made. I gave him more of an explanation and leeway than I normally would b/c his behavior had been exemplary up to that point. But 2 plays later he openly complained again when he felt my partner should have called a travel. I then immediately put up the stop sign and loudly said "Coach, that's enough". He nodded his head and didn't say anything out-of-line the rest of the game.

I don't let coaches chew on my ears all game, even when they aren't making a scene about it. It makes it hard to concentrate and eventually I may lose my focus on the court by listening to the sidelines instead keeping my head into the game.

You just have to nip that type of behavior in the bud otherwise it becomes a problem all game.

[ranjo]

[QUOTE=BadNewsRef]
There has to be a point where you tell the coaches they cannot question every call.

To All:

I did not mean to convey they were questioning every call - I was kind of patting myself on the back that they seemed satisfied by the answers I gave when I was questioned. I was trying to convey that this particular game challenged my game management skills more than any others this summer.

But all of your points are well taken!

Any other comments on the timing issue?

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE=ranjo]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

There has to be a point where you tell the coaches they cannot question every call.

To All:

I did not mean to convey they were questioning every call - I was kind of patting myself on the back that they seemed satisfied by the answers I gave when I was questioned. I was trying to convey that this particular game challenged my game management skills more than any others this summer.

But all of your points are well taken!

Any other comments on the timing issue?

I didn't mean to jump on you with this, it's just that I spent most of this weekend handing out T's to AAU coaches who believe it's them vs us and are used to being listened to & coddled. I even asked 1 coach if this particular battle is the one he's chosen to fight with me at this particular time - which went right over his head until I hit the whistle 3 seconds later. Didn't hear a peep from him the rest of the game, which is the way I like it.

Anyway, on the timing thing take something off, I like Camron's method.

[ChuckElias]

The NBA has a rule that any time the ball is touched inbounds, at least 0.3 seconds must come off the clock. I wouldn't mind seeing that rule in HS/NCAA for just such a situation. I'm gonna try using Camron's suggestion in my camps this summer and see if it helps me.

[IREFU2]

[quote=ranjo]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

There has to be a point where you tell the coaches they cannot question every call.

To All:

I did not mean to convey they were questioning every call - I was kind of patting myself on the back that they seemed satisfied by the answers I gave when I was questioned. I was trying to convey that this particular game challenged my game management skills more than any others this summer.

But all of your points are well taken!

Any other comments on the timing issue?

Randy,

Accourding to the NFHS rules, the throw-in ends once the ball is touched by any other than the person throwing it in. So once the ball hit the defender, the clock should have been started, then stopped once it went out of bounds. See R5 Section 9 Art 4. Depending on how long it took for all of this to happen, time should have ticked off the clock.

[ranjo]

[QUOTE=IREFU2]

Originally Posted by ranjo

Randy,

Accourding to the NFHS rules, the throw-in ends once the ball is touched by any other than the person throwing it in. So once the ball hit the defender, the clock should have been started, then stopped once it went out of bounds. See R5 Section 9 Art 4. Depending on how long it took for all of this to happen, time should have ticked off the clock.

Rob,

That was the problem, It happened so quickly the clock didn't start, and I couldn't accurately tell how many tenths of a second may have elapsed. I did like the NBA idea of taking at least 3 tenths if the ball was touched and went out of bounds. That kind of agrees with the 3 tenths rule for a tip-in using NFHS rules.

[IREFU2]

[quote=ranjo]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Rob,

That was the problem, It happened so quickly the clock didn't start, and I couldn't accurately tell how many tenths of a second may have elapsed. I did like the NBA idea of taking at least 3 tenths if the ball was touched and went out of bounds. That kind of agrees with the 3 tenths rule for a tip-in using NFHS rules.

Well if you didnt have definate knowledge, then you did fine in my opinion. What about your partner? BTW, will be at CNU on Friday and Saturday?