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Old Thu May 18, 2006, 05:55pm
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Terry suspended for punch

The NBA released this today: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ory?id=2450020

I saw the very end of this game and the play in question. It occurred following the jumpball in the FT circle. Terry got the ball on the floor and was tied up by Finley and Manu. Finley is seen complaining about a punch after getting to his feet. One of his teammates calms him. Pretty much the we're up 1 with 3 seconds left so let it go talk.

Now I don't care one bit about the NBA or which team wins, but it is worrisome that the officials did not observe this action during the game. It was not penalized and the game was resumed with a jumpball in the center cirlce.

With all the complaining about the playoff officiating, missing a punch was certainly not what they needed.

Ironically, it was Mark Cuban's player who did it.
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Old Thu May 18, 2006, 08:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
The NBA released this today: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ory?id=2450020

I saw the very end of this game and the play in question. It occurred following the jumpball in the FT circle. Terry got the ball on the floor and was tied up by Finley and Manu. Finley is seen complaining about a punch after getting to his feet. One of his teammates calms him. Pretty much the we're up 1 with 3 seconds left so let it go talk.

Now I don't care one bit about the NBA or which team wins, but it is worrisome that the officials did not observe this action during the game. It was not penalized and the game was resumed with a jumpball in the center cirlce.

With all the complaining about the playoff officiating, missing a punch was certainly not what they needed.

Ironically, it was Mark Cuban's player who did it.
ironically, you claim to not care yet find it worrisome the punch was missed.
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Old Thu May 18, 2006, 10:30pm
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I just saw the highlight of the punch and I can see how the officials missed it. There was a rugby-like scrum and the punch wasn't really obvious. We're not talking about a Kermit Washington-Rudy Tomjanovich type punch here. It was at the bottom of the pile and a cheap, short arm punch.

The officials were probably looking at the top of the pile and seeing who the two new jumpers would be for the jump ball.

So, it's unfortunate that they missed it, but it's understandable. We all miss certain plays.
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Old Thu May 18, 2006, 11:01pm
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The TV crew didn't even see it and they have a producer with access to several different angles of the play. Jason Terry made the punch from the bottom of the pile. Almost impossible for the refs to see.

Z
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 02:31am
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Is this a foul?

I know, nobody here cares about the NBA , but nonetheless I would like to discuss this pic of Dirk Nowitzki's last shot attempt in game 5 of the Dallas - San Antonio series:


I think I would call a foul here. What do you think? Has it to do with NBA rules or am I mislead with my judgement? Anyways, there is absolutely no complaining out there about the refs not making this call, so probably they were just right not to make it!

Cheers, Kostja
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 04:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
ironically, you claim to not care yet find it worrisome the punch was missed.
It is worrisome for the avocation of officiating in general. It further promotes the they're blind, how can they not see that, etc. fanboy banter.

As far as how the failure to punish this action effected the outcome of that one game of this particular series, I really don't care.
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 05:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostja
I know, nobody here cares about the NBA , but nonetheless I would like to discuss this pic of Dirk Nowitzki's last shot attempt in game 5 of the Dallas - San Antonio series:


I think I would call a foul here. What do you think? Has it to do with NBA rules or am I mislead with my judgement? Anyways, there is absolutely no complaining out there about the refs not making this call, so probably they were just right not to make it!

Cheers, Kostja
I don't know the NBA rules, but going off the NFHS and NCAA rules that I do know, you would be wrong to call a foul here. The NFHS rulebook contains the following sentence in 10-6-1: "He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball."
That is exactly what Bowen is doing in this picture. This is one of the cleanest blocks you will ever see.
If in your judgment contact between the player's hips, shorts, biceps, or hair on this play warrants a foul, then you need to do some personal reflection.
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 07:15am
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Quote:
"He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball."
Not clean if it causes a disavdantage to the offensive player. His hand is on the ball, but the rest of is arm is making contact with shooter's hand, arm and shoulder.
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 07:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REFVA
Not clean if it causes a disavdantage to the offensive player. His hand is on the ball, but the rest of is arm is making contact with shooter's hand, arm and shoulder.
It's been mentioned on the forum before, so maybe you've seen or heard of this philosophy: "80/20". If roughly 80% of the contact is on the ball and 20% of the contact is on the body, you are probably not going to get a whistle in the NBA. If you look at the picture, all the contact is on the body and the non-shooting shoulder. And on a whole lot of the ball. This probably falls into that 80/20 philosophy. Lot of ball, some body. Good block in the NBA.
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 07:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I don't know the NBA rules, but going off the NFHS and NCAA rules that I do know, you would be wrong to call a foul here. The NFHS rulebook contains the following sentence in 10-6-1: "He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball."
That is exactly what Bowen is doing in this picture. This is one of the cleanest blocks you will ever see.
If in your judgment contact between the player's hips, shorts, biceps, or hair on this play warrants a foul, then you need to do some personal reflection.
Ok, I've reflected and this is still a foul. Not in the NBA, granted, but in any other level I would call a foul. Bowen made a ton of contact to the head, shoulders, and body that is obvious in this picture and even more obvious in the live play. That is not a clean block in NFHS.
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 08:25am
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Nowitski/Bowen

Quote:
Bowen made a ton of contact to the head, shoulders, and body
From my view of this picture I see no contact with the body. I can see the faces of fans from Bowen's underarm down to the waistline of Notwiski's shorts, so I think we should re-evaluate this "ton of contact to the body" argument.

The contact to the hand and left shoulder are incidental to Bowen's very good block on the ball, IMO. Sorta like Chuck described above concerning the 80/20 philosophy.

Based on what I have heard in camps from D1 officials and even during a my formal evaluation from a high school observer this pictures depicts a good block.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:28am.
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 08:45am
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Regarding the Dirk/Bowen photo, this probably captures the moment at the apex and therefore the point of maximum contact, so you really need a video from the point of first contact with the ball to discuss whether or not it's a foul - just like some jump balls where the initial grab is clean but players contort into lots of contact.

Regarding the groin punch, why was there no suspension back in the first round? Wasn't there a Cleveland player who grabbed/slapped at someone's crotch? The explanation we get is that Terry used a closed fist - what's the big difference? if Terry had massaged Finley' groin instead, that would have been okay?

Ironically, here in Spurs' land, we are hearing that the Spurs were not going to turn the tape in, but Finley turned it in himself. I believe Finley was seriously offended.

Two bothersome things in this incident:
1. one local media station was discussing this and making a point of how Ginobolli and Parker(? maybe Barry - probably Barry) have 'quick hands' on the court, in a context that was obviously implying they sometimes contact players in the groin
2. what are we going to see in games the rest of the summer and next year with elbows and groin contact being highlighted in the NBA playoffs... the suspension seems like overkill at first (no tears for Cuban, however) but really is the best thing in light of the effect of the NBA game on our local HS play
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 08:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
From my view of this picture I see no contact with the body. I can see the faces of fans from Bowen's underarm down to the waistline of Notwiski's shorts, so I think we should re-evaluate this "ton of contact to the body" argument.

The contact to the hand and left shoulder are incidental to Bowen's very good block on the ball, IMO. Sorta like Chuck described above concerning the 80/20 philosophy.

Based on what I have heard in camps from D1 officials and even during a my formal evaluation from a high school observer this pictures depicts a good block.
Did you see the play live? There was a ton of contact, imho. I am not saying it should be a foul in the NBA, but I believe in college it would be called a foul because the contact occurred before the hand got on the ball.
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 09:09am
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One of the things not mentioned about Terry's punch was that Finley jumped on top of him in the tie-up. Terry's response was to punch up (blindly, it appeared to me) in retaliation. This is a pretty normal response to a 6'7" 230 lb guy jumping on you.

The one-game suspension is appropriate, and is mandated by the NBA for any thrown punch, whether contact is made or not.

IMO, Finley's contact was excessive and should have been whistled. Either they felt differently, or missed that action also.

I was hoping to see if Ronnie Nunn discussed this incident on NBA Insiders last night, but I didn't catch it. Anybody see the show? I think they usually have Nunn on Thursday nights to discuss the NBA rules, but maybe they pulled this segment for the playoffs.
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Old Fri May 19, 2006, 09:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtref
Did you see the play live? There was a ton of contact, imho. I am not saying it should be a foul in the NBA, but I believe in college it would be called a foul because the contact occurred before the hand got on the ball.
DT, I didn't see the play live but I can tell you my experiences.

2 seasons ago I officiated my first big-time HS Boys Varsity. Defending AAA (large schools) champion vs. their biggest rival. I worked with 2 of the most respected officials on my board. It was my formal evaluation game for the season. Observer is in 6 D1 conferences (including 2 majors) and this past season officiated the NCAA-W D2 Final Four and is also one of my mentors.

I'm the new lead late in 4th quarter after D1 recruit point guard gets steal and thinks he has an easy break-away. He gathers himself on 2 feet and elevates for dunk. Out of nowhere D1 recruit from other team soars in and pins the ball against the backboard. I blew my whistle b/c from my vantage point I felt there was a lot of body contact. In the locker room after the game the observer and both my partners all said that on a play like that the body contact wasn't sever enough to outweigh the good block up top. In their words it was a big-time block and if I wanted to advance I would have to be able to recognize such plays. Also, every camp environment I've been in where D1 officials are observing I always here the same thing, "let players block shots" which again pretty much goes back to the 80/20 philosophy Chuck brought up.
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