Terry suspended for punch

[Kostja]

I know, nobody here cares about the NBA , but nonetheless I would like to discuss this pic of Dirk Nowitzki's last shot attempt in game 5 of the Dallas - San Antonio series:


I think I would call a foul here. What do you think? Has it to do with NBA rules or am I mislead with my judgement? Anyways, there is absolutely no complaining out there about the refs not making this call, so probably they were just right not to make it!

Cheers, Kostja

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Kostja

I know, nobody here cares about the NBA , but nonetheless I would like to discuss this pic of Dirk Nowitzki's last shot attempt in game 5 of the Dallas - San Antonio series:


I think I would call a foul here. What do you think? Has it to do with NBA rules or am I mislead with my judgement? Anyways, there is absolutely no complaining out there about the refs not making this call, so probably they were just right not to make it!

Cheers, Kostja

I don't know the NBA rules, but going off the NFHS and NCAA rules that I do know, you would be wrong to call a foul here. The NFHS rulebook contains the following sentence in 10-6-1: "He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball."
That is exactly what Bowen is doing in this picture. This is one of the cleanest blocks you will ever see.
If in your judgment contact between the player's hips, shorts, biceps, or hair on this play warrants a foul, then you need to do some personal reflection.

[REFVA]

"He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball."

Not clean if it causes a disavdantage to the offensive player. His hand is on the ball, but the rest of is arm is making contact with shooter's hand, arm and shoulder.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by REFVA

Not clean if it causes a disavdantage to the offensive player. His hand is on the ball, but the rest of is arm is making contact with shooter's hand, arm and shoulder.

It's been mentioned on the forum before, so maybe you've seen or heard of this philosophy: "80/20". If roughly 80% of the contact is on the ball and 20% of the contact is on the body, you are probably not going to get a whistle in the NBA. If you look at the picture, all the contact is on the body and the non-shooting shoulder. And on a whole lot of the ball. This probably falls into that 80/20 philosophy. Lot of ball, some body. Good block in the NBA.

[dtref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I don't know the NBA rules, but going off the NFHS and NCAA rules that I do know, you would be wrong to call a foul here. The NFHS rulebook contains the following sentence in 10-6-1: "He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball."
That is exactly what Bowen is doing in this picture. This is one of the cleanest blocks you will ever see.
If in your judgment contact between the player's hips, shorts, biceps, or hair on this play warrants a foul, then you need to do some personal reflection.

Ok, I've reflected and this is still a foul. Not in the NBA, granted, but in any other level I would call a foul. Bowen made a ton of contact to the head, shoulders, and body that is obvious in this picture and even more obvious in the live play. That is not a clean block in NFHS.

[Raymond]

Bowen made a ton of contact to the head, shoulders, and body

From my view of this picture I see no contact with the body. I can see the faces of fans from Bowen's underarm down to the waistline of Notwiski's shorts, so I think we should re-evaluate this "ton of contact to the body" argument.

The contact to the hand and left shoulder are incidental to Bowen's very good block on the ball, IMO. Sorta like Chuck described above concerning the 80/20 philosophy.

Based on what I have heard in camps from D1 officials and even during a my formal evaluation from a high school observer this pictures depicts a good block.

[jkjenning]

Regarding the Dirk/Bowen photo, this probably captures the moment at the apex and therefore the point of maximum contact, so you really need a video from the point of first contact with the ball to discuss whether or not it's a foul - just like some jump balls where the initial grab is clean but players contort into lots of contact.

Regarding the groin punch, why was there no suspension back in the first round? Wasn't there a Cleveland player who grabbed/slapped at someone's crotch? The explanation we get is that Terry used a closed fist - what's the big difference? if Terry had massaged Finley' groin instead, that would have been okay?

Ironically, here in Spurs' land, we are hearing that the Spurs were not going to turn the tape in, but Finley turned it in himself. I believe Finley was seriously offended.

Two bothersome things in this incident:
1. one local media station was discussing this and making a point of how Ginobolli and Parker(? maybe Barry - probably Barry) have 'quick hands' on the court, in a context that was obviously implying they sometimes contact players in the groin
2. what are we going to see in games the rest of the summer and next year with elbows and groin contact being highlighted in the NBA playoffs... the suspension seems like overkill at first (no tears for Cuban, however) but really is the best thing in light of the effect of the NBA game on our local HS play

[dtref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

From my view of this picture I see no contact with the body. I can see the faces of fans from Bowen's underarm down to the waistline of Notwiski's shorts, so I think we should re-evaluate this "ton of contact to the body" argument.

The contact to the hand and left shoulder are incidental to Bowen's very good block on the ball, IMO. Sorta like Chuck described above concerning the 80/20 philosophy.

Based on what I have heard in camps from D1 officials and even during a my formal evaluation from a high school observer this pictures depicts a good block.

Did you see the play live? There was a ton of contact, imho. I am not saying it should be a foul in the NBA, but I believe in college it would be called a foul because the contact occurred before the hand got on the ball.

[Jimgolf]

One of the things not mentioned about Terry's punch was that Finley jumped on top of him in the tie-up. Terry's response was to punch up (blindly, it appeared to me) in retaliation. This is a pretty normal response to a 6'7" 230 lb guy jumping on you.

The one-game suspension is appropriate, and is mandated by the NBA for any thrown punch, whether contact is made or not.

IMO, Finley's contact was excessive and should have been whistled. Either they felt differently, or missed that action also.

I was hoping to see if Ronnie Nunn discussed this incident on NBA Insiders last night, but I didn't catch it. Anybody see the show? I think they usually have Nunn on Thursday nights to discuss the NBA rules, but maybe they pulled this segment for the playoffs.

[Dribble]

I saw the Bowen block live on TV and on numerous replays and I still think it's CLEAN. I'll call that a jump ball in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters...had nothing to do with the time of the game either.

I've yet to hear from a single commentator (even Barkley) that this should've been a foul. The only ones I hear complaining about it are Mavs fans.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by dtref

Did you see the play live? There was a ton of contact, imho. I am not saying it should be a foul in the NBA, but I believe in college it would be called a foul because the contact occurred before the hand got on the ball.

DT, I didn't see the play live but I can tell you my experiences.

2 seasons ago I officiated my first big-time HS Boys Varsity. Defending AAA (large schools) champion vs. their biggest rival. I worked with 2 of the most respected officials on my board. It was my formal evaluation game for the season. Observer is in 6 D1 conferences (including 2 majors) and this past season officiated the NCAA-W D2 Final Four and is also one of my mentors.

I'm the new lead late in 4th quarter after D1 recruit point guard gets steal and thinks he has an easy break-away. He gathers himself on 2 feet and elevates for dunk. Out of nowhere D1 recruit from other team soars in and pins the ball against the backboard. I blew my whistle b/c from my vantage point I felt there was a lot of body contact. In the locker room after the game the observer and both my partners all said that on a play like that the body contact wasn't sever enough to outweigh the good block up top. In their words it was a big-time block and if I wanted to advance I would have to be able to recognize such plays. Also, every camp environment I've been in where D1 officials are observing I always here the same thing, "let players block shots" which again pretty much goes back to the 80/20 philosophy Chuck brought up.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

DT, I didn't see the play live but I can tell you my experiences.

2 seasons ago I officiated my first big-time HS Boys Varsity. Defending AAA (large schools) champion vs. their biggest rival. I worked with 2 of the most respected officials on my board. It was my formal evaluation game for the season. Observer is in 6 D1 conferences (including 2 majors) and this past season officiated the NCAA-W D2 Final Four and is also one of my mentors.

I'm the new lead late in 4th quarter after D1 recruit point guard gets steal and thinks he has an easy break-away. He gathers himself on 2 feet and elevates for dunk. Out of nowhere D1 recruit from other team soars in and pins the ball against the backboard. I blew my whistle b/c from my vantage point I felt there was a lot of body contact. In the locker room after the game the observer and both my partners all said that on a play like that the body contact wasn't sever enough to outweigh the good block up top. In their words it was a big-time block and if I wanted to advance I would have to be able to recognize such plays. Also, every camp environment I've been in where D1 officials are observing I always here the same thing, "let players block shots" which again pretty much goes back to the 80/20 philosophy Chuck brought up.

I have the same experience. If you call this a foul just based on this picture, you will not advance to JUCO ball, let alone working a good boy's HS game. I have never heard the 80/20 philosophy, but the term I have heard used, "If it is clean up top, the rest is incidental." Also I do not know too many blocks that do not have some contact involved somewhere. Even the Mavs player (I do not want to try to spell his name) fell to the floor, I still have no foul.

Peace

[dtref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

DT, I didn't see the play live but I can tell you my experiences.

2 seasons ago I officiated my first big-time HS Boys Varsity. Defending AAA (large schools) champion vs. their biggest rival. I worked with 2 of the most respected officials on my board. It was my formal evaluation game for the season. Observer is in 6 D1 conferences (including 2 majors) and this past season officiated the NCAA-W D2 Final Four and is also one of my mentors.

I'm the new lead late in 4th quarter after D1 recruit point guard gets steal and thinks he has an easy break-away. He gathers himself on 2 feet and elevates for dunk. Out of nowhere D1 recruit from other team soars in and pins the ball against the backboard. I blew my whistle b/c from my vantage point I felt there was a lot of body contact. In the locker room after the game the observer and both my partners all said that on a play like that the body contact wasn't sever enough to outweigh the good block up top. In their words it was a big-time block and if I wanted to advance I would have to be able to recognize such plays. Also, every camp environment I've been in where D1 officials are observing I always here the same thing, "let players block shots" which again pretty much goes back to the 80/20 philosophy Chuck brought up.

I definitely agree with letting players block shots and I also agree with the philosophy of when they get ball and then there is contact it is a great athletic play. But, in this particular play, the defender, imo, knocked the crap out of Dirk what's his name in order to get his hand on the ball. It sounds like you have a very good mentor.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dtref

Did you see the play live? There was a ton of contact, imho. I am not saying it should be a foul in the NBA, but I believe in college it would be called a foul because the contact occurred before the hand got on the ball.

What does that have to do with anything? That's like the angry fan who yells, "Call something ref, before somebody gets hurt!"

Whether the foul is called or not, Terry threw a punch. Being fouled does not give him that right. Calling the foul does not erase the contact. Don't be so follish as to think that the punch would not have been thrown if a whistle had blown.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What does that have to do with anything? That's like the angry fan who yells, "Call something ref, before somebody gets hurt!"

Whether the foul is called or not, Terry threw a punch. Being fouled does not give him that right. Calling the foul does not erase the contact. Don't be so follish as to think that the punch would not have been thrown if a whistle had blown.

This is what happens when a thread gets hijacked. I'm pretty sure dtref was talking about the block, not the punch.