Stiff Arm

[ike301]

On offense, ball carrier has what sort of legal offensive stiff arm as he drives to the basket?

I've been hearing rumors, that you cannot guard up. I've also heard you can stiff arm with forearm, as long as below the waist.

What is it?

[ChuckElias]

Ike, it's NOT legal to use the non-dribbling arm to ward off defenders or to protect the ball. The applicable High School rule (NFHS) is 4-24-7: "It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a drible or when throwing for goal."

The stiff-arm would be a foul if it makes contact or displaces the defender.

[ike301]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Ike, it's NOT legal to use the non-dribbling arm to ward off defenders or to protect the ball. The applicable High School rule (NFHS) is 4-24-7: "It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a drible or when throwing for goal."

The stiff-arm would be a foul if it makes contact or displaces the defender.

awesome. this applies to NBA ruling, as well? i know the guys are going to say "well, that's highschool". grrr.

[ChuckElias]

The NBA does not address this as clearly as the high school rules. The applicable rule in the NBA set is Rule 12B - Section I - a: "A player shall not hold, push, charge into impede the progress of an opponent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a position that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately" (emphasis mine.)

The rule does not specify offense or defense, so it applies to both. I think holding off a defender with a forearm would fall under this rule.

[ike301]

thank you sir.

RULE NO. 12
Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12...av=ArticleList

Actually, that rule applies to the defender, not the ball carrier.

If you look in same rule 12, but section II - by dribbler. it doesnt speak about that 'stiff arm'.

ok. so let me switch up the comment a little bit. ok, 'stiff arm' may have been too strong of a description. Look at the photo below. HOWEVER, ignore the hand on payton's thigh.



Imagine the touching palm was facing out instead on his thigh. would that drive constitute as a foul? i just cant imagine driving to the hole limp arm.... so instead of a 'stiff arm', it's more like a guarded, flexing bicep/tricep move....

thoughts?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

OK dude, just spill the beans. What kind of rec league game did you feel like you got screwed on a call in?

[BktBallRef]

That's routinely called a foul Ike, in all leagues.

[JRutledge]

The photo does not tell us anything. The photo only shows they were touching. You cannot tell if he used the arm to pass him or was he already by the defender (Gary Payton it looks like) on the dribble. I would rather see the video than just a picture. Either way it goes this is a judgment call.

Peace

[Dribble]

On offense, you CANNOT hold a guy off with a "stiff arm" type move. I'd call a player control foul on that one, but as others have said, it's a judgment call.

You might wanna head over to the football forum and see what they have to say!!!

[ike301]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

OK dude, just spill the beans. What kind of rec league game did you feel like you got screwed on a call in?

ok ok. you got me.

basically, at the end of the game (which we won), i keep hearing mutters that I was fouling on each drive. i did a 'protective arm' gesture waist high, but never pushed off, nor hit. i.e., the only time i would tense up on the arm would be when they would try to attempt to steal the ball.

no calls were made, and none of them said diddly if/when these allegations occurred.

trying to get some ref insight or literature....

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by ike301

thank you sir.

RULE NO. 12
Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12...av=ArticleList

Actually, that rule applies to the defender, not the ball carrier.

If you look in same rule 12, but section II - by dribbler. it doesnt speak about that 'stiff arm'.

Ike, can you show me anything in that rule or in Section I to indicate that it applies only to a defender? You can't. I double-checked. It just says a "player" shall not. . . A player is anybody on the court, including the dribbler.

The fact that specific things are laid out that relate to the dribbler does NOT mean that Section I doesn't also apply to the dribbler. Section I applies to everyone. JMO.

[mick]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Ike, it's NOT legal to use the non-dribbling arm to ward off defenders or to protect the ball. The applicable High School rule (NFHS) is 4-24-7: "It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a drible or when throwing for goal."

The stiff-arm would be a foul if it makes contact or displaces the defender.

Okay, Chuck.

So how does that work when:

the defender hacks [neither intentional nor flagrant] the not legal arm of the ball handler.

With no displacement, is that an offensive violation, an offensive foul or incidental contact?
mick

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ike301

ok ok. you got me.

basically, at the end of the game (which we won), i keep hearing mutters that I was fouling on each drive. i did a 'protective arm' gesture waist high, but never pushed off, nor hit. i.e., the only time i would tense up on the arm would be when they would try to attempt to steal the ball.

no calls were made, and none of them said diddly if/when these allegations occurred.

trying to get some ref insight or literature....

A "stiff arm" is a push. The "swim" stroke is a hold. Sounds like you put your arm up to hold them back. Reads like a foul to me, but I can't see exactly what you did; unless you made Sports Center's Rec League Play of the Day.
As for their groaning, ignore it. If the ref doesn't see it or call it, it's not a foul in rec games; at least until he sees it and calls it the next time. Don't be surprised if it gets called, and don't b!tch when he misses some other calls.

Good luck.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by mick

So how does that work when:

the defender hacks [neither intentional nor flagrant] the not legal arm of the ball handler.

With no displacement, is that an offensive violation, an offensive foul or incidental contact?
mick

I would guess that it's like any other pushing foul. You have to determine who initiated the contact, then determine if the contact affected the play. That's what we normally do in a handcheck/push/rebound situation, right? So do it here.

Did the defender reach and initiate the contact? Or did the dribbler extend the arm to ward off the defender? Once you answer that question, then you can ask whether the contact affected the play. If it did, then you have a foul on the guy who initiated the contact.

That's my guess. I don't think the thought process is any different in the NBA.

[mick]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I would guess that it's like any other pushing foul. You have to determine who initiated the contact, then determine if the contact affected the play. That's what we normally do in a handcheck/push/rebound situation, right? So do it here.

Did the defender reach and initiate the contact? Or did the dribbler extend the arm to ward off the defender? Once you answer that question, then you can ask whether the contact affected the play. If it did, then you have a foul on the guy who initiated the contact.

That's my guess. I don't think the thought process is any different in the NBA.

[quote=ChuckElias]The applicable High School rule (NFHS) is 4-24-7: "It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a drible or when throwing for goal."[\quote]

Hi Chuck,
My point was that the ballhandler's arm is not supposed to have been there when the defender hacked it. Thus, the defender hacked an illegal action instead of being allowed to play through it; and so it seems, the defender should not be penalized since the ballhandler did something [illegal - protect the ball] to gain an advantage [ie., ward off the defender].

Wouldn't this "illegal arm" be a double jeopardy problem for the defense, because, in reality, the defense can't touch the illegal arm and the ballhandler is not automatically violating (contrary to definition) ?

If there is no penalty for protecting the ball (per 4-24-7) then it is not illegal. No?
mick