Stiff Arm

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by mick

So how does that work when:

the defender hacks [neither intentional nor flagrant] the not legal arm of the ball handler.

With no displacement, is that an offensive violation, an offensive foul or incidental contact?
mick

I would guess that it's like any other pushing foul. You have to determine who initiated the contact, then determine if the contact affected the play. That's what we normally do in a handcheck/push/rebound situation, right? So do it here.

Did the defender reach and initiate the contact? Or did the dribbler extend the arm to ward off the defender? Once you answer that question, then you can ask whether the contact affected the play. If it did, then you have a foul on the guy who initiated the contact.

That's my guess. I don't think the thought process is any different in the NBA.

[mick]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I would guess that it's like any other pushing foul. You have to determine who initiated the contact, then determine if the contact affected the play. That's what we normally do in a handcheck/push/rebound situation, right? So do it here.

Did the defender reach and initiate the contact? Or did the dribbler extend the arm to ward off the defender? Once you answer that question, then you can ask whether the contact affected the play. If it did, then you have a foul on the guy who initiated the contact.

That's my guess. I don't think the thought process is any different in the NBA.

[quote=ChuckElias]The applicable High School rule (NFHS) is 4-24-7: "It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a drible or when throwing for goal."[\quote]

Hi Chuck,
My point was that the ballhandler's arm is not supposed to have been there when the defender hacked it. Thus, the defender hacked an illegal action instead of being allowed to play through it; and so it seems, the defender should not be penalized since the ballhandler did something [illegal - protect the ball] to gain an advantage [ie., ward off the defender].

Wouldn't this "illegal arm" be a double jeopardy problem for the defense, because, in reality, the defense can't touch the illegal arm and the ballhandler is not automatically violating (contrary to definition) ?

If there is no penalty for protecting the ball (per 4-24-7) then it is not illegal. No?
mick

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by mick

Wouldn't this "illegal arm" be a double jeopardy problem for the defense, because, in reality, the defense can't touch the illegal arm and the ballhandler is not automatically violating (contrary to definition) ?

I guess you could look at it that way. I've always thought of the "illegal arm" as pushing away the defender's attempt at the ball or as pushing the defender (like a real football "stiff arm").

[Adam]

I see it like the moving screen. The ball handler can put his arm out there all he wants as long as he doesn't alter or impede the movement of the defender. A defender can contort himself into all sorts of positions to redirect the ball handler, until there's contact, nothing.

If I've got an offensive player sticking his arm out but not making contact, and the defender hacks through it; I'm probably calling the hack. Sticking your arm out doesn't make it free game any more than not being in Legal Guarding Position makes the defender free game for an offensive elbow.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If I've got an offensive player sticking his arm out but not making contact, and the defender hacks through it; I'm probably calling the hack. Sticking your arm out doesn't make it free game any more than not being in Legal Guarding Position makes the defender free game for an offensive elbow.

Then you are calling that action like most everyone is calling it.
Seems like 4-24-7 doesn't make much sense, does it ? It's just one of those "So what?" rules.

mick

[Adam]

Yeah, I guess so.
I do, however, like 4-24-2, "It is legal use of the hands to reach...." I know it talks about slapping the hand when it's on the ball, but I may have to quote those 9 words to a coach some time when he's crying for me to call a "reach."