WARNING!! Annual Off-Topic Baseball Thread. Esteemed Members BEWARE!!

[mick]

Originally Posted by dblref

As much as I hated to see the Yankees lose, they were definitely out-pitched and out-hit in this series. Guess I'll pull for the Tigers now.

dblref,
That's great ! Tigers will need all the help they can get.


I was wonderin':

Will there be a lot of Yankee fans rooting for the METS ?

How does that work ?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mick

I was wonderin':[INDENT]

Will there be a lot of Yankee fans rooting for the METS ?

Not freaking likely!

Go Tigers!!

Good pitching can take you a long way.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not freaking likely!

Go Tigers!!

Go JR !

[dblref]

Originally Posted by mick

dblref,
That's great ! Tigers will need all the help they can get.


I was wonderin':

Will there be a lot of Yankee fans rooting for the METS ?

How does that work ?

Not me. I'm American League first, and my favorite NL team is Atlanta (worked there 6 years). The Braves really sucked this year.

[ChuckElias]

Look, everybody wants to win the World Series, ok? Why does King George think it's his birthright to win it every year? This mentality that the season is a failure if the Yankees don't win the World Series is absolutely insane.

Are you really going to fire Joe Torre after the amazing 2nd half that the Yankees put together? If you fire the manager every time you don't win the World Series, you'll have a new manager every year. Which means you'll very likely never win the Series again. It's just silly.

And is Lou Pinella the answer to this "problem" of not winning the Series in 6 years? I wouldn't bet on it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Look, everybody wants to win the World Series, ok? Why does King George think it's his birthright to win it every year? This mentality that the season is a failure if the Yankees don't win the World Series is absolutely insane.

Are you really going to fire Joe Torre after the amazing 2nd half that the Yankees put together? If you fire the manager every time you don't win the World Series, you'll have a new manager every year. Which means you'll very likely never win the Series again. It's just silly.

And is Lou Pinella the answer to this "problem" of not winning the Series in 6 years? I wouldn't bet on it.

Um, Chuck, does the name Grady Little mean anything to you? Do you really think that Grady morphed straight into a genius from a moron as soon as he hit LA? Bah-stan basically fired him because he left Pedro in too long-- iow because he decided to go with his best pitcher. If it works, he's a genius and he gets his own statue in the Fenway. It doesn't work though and he's run outa town. That's beisbol.

NY has gotta do something. It's either the manager or some players. Personally, I think that their entire starting pitching staff should be blown up except for Ho Chi Minh. Easier said than done though. They're stuck with Randy Johnson for another year. They can get rid of Mussina and Wright though. Mussina has never won a big game in his life, and he's 37. And every time Wright pitches, the Yanks are down 4-0 before they can bat.

Sheffield has gotta go too. No room for him; Melky Cabrera has got to play regularly. As for A-Rod? Heeeeeello LA!

Gonna be a busy off-season in NY methinks.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, Chuck, does the name Grady Little mean anything to you? Do you really think that Grady morphed straight into a genius from a moron as soon as he hit LA? Bah-stan basically fired him because he left Pedro in too long

Grady had detractors, even in the front office, long before the Pedro decision. His handling of pitchers, especially the bullpen, was horrible for most of his stay in Boston. He was also a "player's manager" to the point that he didn't discipline anybody for anything. (A trait that Francona shares, btw.) But they were playing well enough to get into the playoffs, so there was no way that they were going to make a change.

The Pedro decision was simply the last straw. And the problem with the Pedro decision was not that he decided to go with his best pitcher. (That's a real positive face to put on it, tho.) Pedro was done. Every person watching that game knew he was done. My wife asked me why Little came out of the dugout and then left Pedro in. If my wife knows the pitcher needs to come out, he needs to come out. There was no decision to be made in that situation. It was an utter lapse of baseball sense and judgment.

Torre hasn't made one of those, as far as I can see. He hasn't been criticized for mis-handling the pitching staff, or for hitting Jeter ninth, or for letting the clubhouse get out of control. The only possible mistake that I can see in the Tigers series was not pitching Wang on short rest in place of Wright. And even that is a coin-flip. Pitchers generally don't do well on short rest in the playoffs. So the only obvious thing Torre did wrong was that he didn't win the World Series. If that gets him fired, then shame on Steinbrenner.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Look, everybody wants to win the World Series, ok? Why does King George think it's his birthright to win it every year?

I don't think he believes it's his birthright to win every year.

I think he believes if he works to assemble the best team on & off the field he will win.

(And yes that translates into paying big money to attract the talent he wants.)

Of course it doesn't always work out, be there ya have it.

This mentality that the season is a failure if the Yankees don't win the World Series is absolutely insane.

The goal of a baseball team is to win the WS. How is it NOT a failure if you fail to attain that goal???

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I don't think he believes it's his birthright to win every year.

Well, you're closer to things there than I am obviously, but I can tell you that it sure seems that way outside of NYC. He never says, "What a great season we had. What a fantastic effort after the All-Star break to win the division. I'm proud of the way the guys played in the face of all the injuries we suffered. We just came up a little short against a very good opponent in this series." You only ever hear, "Heads will roll".

The goal of a baseball team is to win the WS. How is it NOT a failure if you fail to attain that goal???

If that's your ONLY goal, then I agree with you. But it's also insane if that's your only goal. Every MLB team would love to win the World Series. But do you really think that the Royals or the Devil Rays had the goal of winning the World Series back in March? Of course not. They had no realistic chance of attaining a winning record, let alone wins in the playoffs. While they would love to make the World Series, they have other more realistic goals by which to judge the success of their season. My goal is to work the NCAA tournament someday. If I don't ever do that, is my officiating career a failure? Of course not.

A more realistic measure of success for a baseball team is to make the playoffs. As every player, coach, and announcer says, anything can happen in a short series. It's very possible for the better team to lose a best-of-5 series. Even after making the playoffs, you only have a 1-in-8 chance of winning the World Series, at best.

And again, if anybody thinks Lou Pinella gives the Yankees a better chance of winning a World Series than Torre does, that's insane, too.

[mick]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Well, you're closer to things there than I am obviously, but I can tell you that it sure seems that way outside of NYC. He never says, "What a great season we had. What a fantastic effort after the All-Star break to win the division. I'm proud of the way the guys played in the face of all the injuries we suffered. We just came up a little short against a very good opponent in this series." You only ever hear, "Heads will roll".

If that's your ONLY goal, then I agree with you. But it's also insane if that's your only goal. Every MLB team would love to win the World Series. But do you really think that the Royals or the Devil Rays had the goal of winning the World Series back in March? Of course not. They had no realistic chance of attaining a winning record, let alone wins in the playoffs. While they would love to make the World Series, they have other more realistic goals by which to judge the success of their season. My goal is to work the NCAA tournament someday. If I don't ever do that, is my officiating career a failure? Of course not.

A more realistic measure of success for a baseball team is to make the playoffs. As every player, coach, and announcer says, anything can happen in a short series. It's very possible for the better team to lose a best-of-5 series. Even after making the playoffs, you only have a 1-in-8 chance of winning the World Series, at best.

And again, if anybody thinks Lou Pinella gives the Yankees a better chance of winning a World Series than Torre does, that's insane, too.

Goals will differ, Chuck, and it has nothing to do with sanity, but probably closer to reality.

It wasn't unbelievable that the Yankees or Red Sox, ... or White Sox, would win this year's WS. And if that was their goal, it was truely reachable.

...Detroit met their goal of .500 ball.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Well, you're closer to things there than I am obviously, but I can tell you that it sure seems that way outside of NYC. He never says, "What a great season we had. What a fantastic effort after the All-Star break to win the division. I'm proud of the way the guys played in the face of all the injuries we suffered. We just came up a little short against a very good opponent in this series." You only ever hear, "Heads will roll".

So some person who's sunk literally billions of dollars into his professional sports franchise should just shrug and say "Oh well...nice try fellas"?

If that's your ONLY goal, then I agree with you. But it's also insane if that's your only goal.

If you own an majority stake in a multi-billion dollar business your goal should be *less* than the best you can do?

My goal is to work the NCAA tournament someday. If I don't ever do that, is my officiating career a failure? Of course not.

With all due respect this comparison is stupid.

A more realistic measure of success for a baseball team is to make the playoffs. As every player, coach, and announcer says, anything can happen in a short series. It's very possible for the better team to lose a best-of-5 series. Even after making the playoffs, you only have a 1-in-8 chance of winning the World Series, at best.

Your statistics assume random outcomes of a fair game. Obviously the outcome of a professional sporting event is neither random nor fair.

And again, if anybody thinks Lou Pinella gives the Yankees a better chance of winning a World Series than Torre does, that's insane, too.

Opinions...everybody's got one.

:shrug:

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

So some person who's sunk literally billions of dollars into his professional sports franchise should just shrug and say "Oh well...nice try fellas"?

With all due respect. . . Nah, never mind

If you own an majority stake in a multi-billion dollar business your goal should be *less* than the best you can do?

With all due respect this comparison is stupid.

The point of the comparison, which I perhaps didn't make very well, is that when a large number of people or organizations have the same goal and only one person or organization can achieve it, it's not unreasonable to be satisfied with a lesser accomplishment. Have a grand goal, by all means. But if that goal is not very likely (and even for the pre-season favorite, it's not all that likely), have a reasonable goal as a measure of success.

That was the point of my comparison. I have a grand goal, which is not very likely. So I also have other "reasonable" goals that, if achieved, will make my officiating career a success.

And while you question this as shooting for "less than the best you can do", you pointedly ignored my comments about the Devil Rays and Royals, who would love to win a World Series, but have almost no chance of doing so.

Your statistics assume random outcomes of a fair game. Obviously the outcome of a professional sporting event is neither random nor fair.

Yes, I know. I'm no good at all with probabilities. I was hoping that my numbers would give a decent picture. I should have known not to try to get them past you.