[refTN]

Originally posted by wwcfoa43

Well, you usually need some kind of displacement in block/charge situations, but the key imo usually is whether the defender has established and maintained a legal guarding position before the contact.

Usually, with shoulder contact on the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block. [/B]

I am not sure I agree with this assessment. We do not let players on offense extend an arm to strike a defender even if the defender has no LGP. By the same token there may be instances of other acts committed by the offensive player causing contact that would constitute a player control foul even without LGP. I can imagine a scenario where I would call PC without LGP involving a lowering of the shoulder.

The key is that the lack of LGP does not give the offensive player free reign to perform any movement they desire. Lowering the shoulder since it can be dangerous and is not part of a "normal" basketball movement could be considered in this category. [/B][/QUOTE]

wwcfoa43 hit it on the head. I was taught and trained that if the offensive player uses an some kind of "overt" action that we don't need to legitimize LGP, it is an offensive fouls. Here are some examples of Overt actions, but are not limited to:

Leading with the foot on a drive
excessively extending the arm
wipe outs with the off arm

I on some rare occassions was going to call a block on a player and then right as i blow my whistle the offensive kid would do something overt and I would take the charge. Not often but I have done it before.