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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 12:31am
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Hey everyone.... Had a situation today that is really on my mind and I need some criticism and or support for my decision.
Sectional NJ CYO 7-8 Boys 3rd and 4th playoff championship game A Green 8 players strong, no height B White 10 players strong, all height My situation is a building one so here it goes (sorry about the long thread ) 1st Quarter Green is down by 10; coach is yapping all quarter about travels, fouls, keeps on screaming shot, AND ONE!!!) And no foul was called So, my partner and I mostly ignore it since we didnt want to eject or penalize a team for their coachs behavior. We keep on telling the coach, (HEY REF did you see that foul?) that wasnt a foul coach etc 2nd Quarter Sloppy playing both teams, shooting double bonus No incidents Green down by 8 3rd Quarter Green is down by 6; A1 is running up court parallel to B1, and A1 runs into traffic and falls down Really no call, since no one had the ball, no one had possession since they were all moving so I and my partner let it go Were talking about four players who basically just bumped into each other No one falls down; no one looks hurt they all just play on (Keep in mind this was not a washout then keep moving, this was just bumping) A1 is down on the court (in front of his bench) and the coach screams that sure looked like a foul to me, didnt it to you?) At this point Im just ignoring the coach and A1 turns and says sure did, this ref is blind, he has no clue what hes doing out here Unbelievable!!! This guy is Unbelievable!!! TWEET got A1 for T and B shoots 2 (makes none) Later on A1 is playing and walking to the bench for a substitution Im across the court at the free throw line extended on the sideline ready to inbound the ball and A1 walks back onto the court and says Ref, YOU SHOULD JUST DIE, I HOPE YOU DIE TWEET got him again B shoots 2 makes 1 then the debate is how the A coach says I cant T his player since hes not on the court etc Then the coach starts with his bickering (and I quote) what is this your first time? Do you even know how to blow a whistle? Your ridiculous your unbelievable Instead of whacking the coach, I told him thats ENOUGH COACH and play went on 4th Quarter Green down by 20; I find out that A1 is now back on the court after being DQed The other coach lets it go and we continue This coach didnt know about 2 Ts he sits Its just been bothering me all night (game was at 2) I wouldnt of changed anything but I dont know I guess I should have gotten the coach first but he was alone and again this was the semi-final (3rd/4th place game) so I didnt want to take the ball out of anyones hands End of game - Coach comes up to me (with A1) and asks what did he say... Told him... Your unbeli. where did you learn to ref? etc... Then my partner jumps in and says "Well did you say he should die" - coach goes - NOT THE POINT! "Thanks for loosing us the game!" Any comments?
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Pat The Ref 
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 12:45am
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HAHA I had a 6th grade boys CYO game today. Coach gets mad about a PC call against his team me and my partner try to avoid giving him a T but he wants it and wont back down. So he gets it. He sits down and is good till the 4th quatre. Game tied his player drives the lane and travels. He gets up and jumps on the floor to " Call a timeout" aka argue, he keeps moving more and more on the court. My partner gives him his second T. He is told he has been ejected and needs to leave. He refuses after 30 seconds we remind him again. Another 10 seconds go by and still he is coaching his players. We then call the game a forfit. He goes over to his fans, gathers them togeather and has the all come over to argue. We then try to turn away, but everywhere we go turn parents are around. We are told that the scoresheet wont be finallized till we sign are names. This came from the assistant coach. I failed to mention the opposing team picked up and walked away as soon as they won as a result of the forfit. Since all the fans also want are name we decide not to give it out, rather we put are assignors number down on the sheet and tell them they can call him and get the info they want. They dont wish to go away and we have another game to go, so we tell them if they dont leave we will call the police. They finnaly leave. What else could we have done. Are assignor asked us to write a report, which we both did. Anthing else we should do?
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 12:47am
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Couple things.
Who cares if the other coach doesn't care if A1 plays, he's done. What do you teach A1 if you allow him to act like this and then allow him to play after you've DQ'd him? Also, the coach mis-used the word "your" in his sentence. 
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 12:54am
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sorry about the spelling... You would have tossed A1 too right?
It seems that CYO is getting more agressive
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Pat The Ref
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 12:57am
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Quote:
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 01:31am
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The A coach needed a T early on. The purpose of a T is less to punish a coach than to modify his behavior. I appreciate your desire not to penalize kids for adults' behavior, but this guy's behavior needed to change, and you had the tool to change it.
The second T on him would have been a bit more difficult, since it would have meant a forfeit (since he's the only coach). But with one absolutely final warning (in which you point out he's the only coach and that a second T means a forfeit), that's gotta be called too. And don't forget the T for playing the disqualified player. No excuse for him doing that.
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Visit my blog at illegalscreen.blogspot.com...
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 02:31am
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Quote:
Yoou don't want to penalize a team for a coach's behavior? Then I'd forget about officiating and become a social worker. The procedure is: 1) warning. 2) technical foul if the warning is ignored. 3) another technical foul if unsporting behavior continues. You were the author of your own misfortune. Sorry, but there it is.
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 02:55am
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JR's exactly right. You have to take care of business out there and you didn't.
I have to advise you to get tough. All the unsporting behavior that you allowed IS truly unbelievable to me. As for your stating that you wouldn't change anything... Well, if you don't begin doing so, you will not enjoy officiating in the future. Lastly, never ever allow a player who has been DQ'd back into a contest!
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 05:55am
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I don't do a lot of rec leagues/kids games anymore and one of the primary reasons is just having to deal with the ignorant crap that comes with some of these games. The games that I do work are in quality leagues where I know those who run the league put the kids first, and in well organized adult leagues that hold the participants to a code of conduct.
The problem with games at the elementary/middle school level is that by and large the coaches are some parent who has little to no clue. In bad cases, the coach attaches his ego to the game and/or starts duplicating what he thinks he sees on TV. Also, most officials at that level don't have the experience to properly deal with coaches, so by and large, the domineering coach overwhelms the officials and thinks it's his right to have free reign. At the higher levels of the game, the coach's livelihood is often invested in the outcome of games, so I personally take that into consideration when dealing with coaches, but at this level, the tolerance for any sort of garbage should be at zero, and whenever I do any of these games, that's where my tolerance level is at. A simple sarcastic comment or a disrespectful snicker or jesture is enough to warrant a T from me in a kids game, whereas the same behavior likely wouldn't even draw my attention in a higher level game. In regards to your sitch PAT, in the 1st quarter, the constant chatter may have drawn a "not on every play coach," then an ABS technical. A1's first comment was a borderline flagrant T, and his second one clearly was. Coach's grandstanding to A1 also should've been a T and the 2nd comment at this level a flagrant T. That you let A1 continue playing and didn't T the coach is unbelievable. You completely lost control of the game early and the game just went further and further down the toilet. I know your heart is in the right place Pat in that you don't want to hurt the kids or decide the game with a technical, but in order to manage the game you have to demonstrate control, and sometimes the only way to do that is to call technicals before the game goes in the toilet because once it does it ain't coming back. In regards to fonzzy's sitch, I think the whole practice of signing a scoresheet to end a game is absurd and I would refuse to do it. I have no problem signing the book, but to expect me to go to the scorers table immediately after the game is expecting too much. Too many things can happen to officials and we can be put into unnecessarily awkward situations by being at the table at the end of the game, right where the losing team is just aching to make a comment. I'm not afraid of anyone or anything, but there's no need to invite a potential conflict, or to invite unpleasant comments for nothing. Stay away from the teams after the game and you can avoid countless problems.
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 09:23am
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Quote:
From your description, it seems like not dealing with this howler monkey in the first quarter set the tone for the rest of the game. If he really was like it sounds like he was, I think you have to deal with this guy early. Quite possibly in the first 2 minutes of the game. In the 3rd, A1's comments were correctly penalized with a Technical Foul. However, I do think it was preventable by dealing with everything earlier. A1's second comment is a Flagrant Technical Foul - and report it as such and write it up that way too. Coach getting T'd. Possibly. When A1 plays again, this is a Flagrant Technical Foul (by rule). When you have a game like this, take the advice common here: get in, get done, get out. I wudda been outta there like a bat outta hell, and not give the coach a chance to be a moron.
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Pope Francis
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 09:29am
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Pat, you've been given some pretty good advise here. As someone stated, games like this will make you not enjoy officiating anymore. Which means; you have to make a decision regarding how you will handle your next game like this.
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Do you ever feel like your stuff strutted off without you?
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 10:58am
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Step #1 - Don't do non-school games (or parochial school games). There is virtually no accountability or control involved with these games. People who pay tuition for their kid to attend these schools expect more control (return on their investment) of what happens in the games (playing time, winning). Therefore, the officials will be blamed more often than not for losses.
Step #2 - There is no step #2.
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 11:26am
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Thanks...
This was a little misleading... After we discovered A1 was re-entered illegally, we sat him... Did not access the T since the opposing coach let it go... The major problem (with my Tech assessment) is that I started officiating with baseball. So no rabbit ears, let it go syndrome) That is why I am a little gun shy with the T The 2nd problem is that I worked for 3 years before I got associated in a local town rec league where a 2Ts was no suspension or further action Coaches (as stated above) were parents who watched NBA and tried to reproduce what they were seeing
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Pat The Ref
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 12:32pm
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Pat, as I was coming up through the referee ranks, I also gave coaches (and to a lesser degree players) more latitude than I should have. And I often paid for it either by having a game like you had or by having to use more punitive measures later in the game (hard to tell what might have happened if I HAD taken care of business). But I can tell you now that what everyone is saying above is absolutely true. Take care of business early and set the tone for the rest of the game.
It's your responsibility to enforce the rules...all of them (I think I read that somewhere...Rule 2, I think). If you let the players and coaches know early what will and will not be tolerated then everyone can get to the business at hand and a basketball game suddenly appears. Forget about the liability issues related to what might happen if the player you DQ'd had been allowed to play again and he ends up injuring another player. That's a whole other can of worms. As you work the higher level games you will hopefully see that you do less and less teaching to the players and coaches as to what type of behavior is acceptable. But even now, from time to time, I still work lower level games (part of my attempt to give back to a game that has helped me so much) and I have to take care of business early when it comes to coaches. Depending on the level of play and whether it is a recreational or competitive league I try to help the kids as much as possible with verbal encouragement. And sometimes the tournament director will allow some latitude in how strictly you should call the rules. But your job is still to enforce these rules. OK...getting down from my soapbox. Good topic...thanks for letting me participate.
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I'm getting what I want...by helping others get what they want.
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Sun Mar 12, 2006, 12:38pm
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your welcome
 ...I just hated it since it was the last game of the season and I didn't want to end it on a "bad" note... Should I have taken (T'ed) the coach earlier - YES... I know that (I knew that) but, I just thought if I ignored it, I would have gotten better... It's a problem I see since I get no respect (RIP Rodney) since Im the youngest official in my assc. (18)... I loved doing this when I was younger and decided to get carded because I wasnt getting any respect now this happens Thanks for advice...
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Pat The Ref
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