Oh I'm upset

[mplagrow]

Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes
SO which one was it?

Officals: Bryan Kersey, Doug Sirmons, Roger Ayers

Oooooh, somebody's calling the bluff. Pass the popcorn!

[BktBallRef]

Bryan and Roger work primarily ACC games while Doug works mostly SEC contests.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/sports/wb/40143

Wonder what TussAgee, who's obviously an intramural ref, would make on the test at the bottom of the page.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:05 AM]

[TussAgee11]

Originally posted by mplagrow

Oooooh, somebody's calling the bluff. Pass the popcorn!

Not the point, to call out the specific official. I know which one it was, but why even bother? It doesn't matter if he's the best, the worst, the veteran or the rookie. He made that call, and it stands.

I just wanted to talk about how officials should treat fans, if at all, not get in a pissy fit about a single official. Should refs always put the earmuffs on when it comes to fans? How does it change between NCAA and H.S.? What about a little/big H.S game? Or a little/big NCAA game?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TussAgee11
[/B]

I just wanted to talk about how officials should treat fans, if at all, not get in a pissy fit about a single official.
[/B][/QUOTE]Why? Isn't that that exactly what you did? Didn't you get into a pissy fit with a single official and then get put in the parking lot for doing so?

Fans should be treated with all of the respect that they deserve. Obviously that's what happened to you in your case. Why don't you quit whining and just let it go.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Junker

Adam,
I'm thinking you should bring both since I had to find subs for you in 3 games, and then find a sub for your sub in 2 of those. And then I had a coach tell me to stick to Saturday morning games. I hope you're enjoying the new location!

Jeff,
Fine, but I could have worked the first of those games. I'll admit I owe you a beer, though.

We are liking it. Can't wait for next season, though, when I can get started with the IAABO folks out here.

[TussAgee11]

Problem with officials.

They take anytime somebody mentions a situation that they misbehaved in, we can't learn on both sides. Always just assumes the party who acted out of line doesn't deserve conversation. I recognize what I did Jarassic, but I'm over whining about it. I want to learn from a fan's perspective (I have done that, keep your mouth shut). Now I want to learn from an officials perspective.

Is there anything wrong with that? If there is, let me know. Thought this board was for learning, not for calling people out, which after my original post I have not done.

Thanks for the mature response you gave me. I'm treating this situation maturely, not whining. I want feedback as an official so I can benefit during my games. Is that not allowed? Seriously, if there is Jarassic, I won't even come here anymore, I'll stay to the baseball board, and just lurk over here, because I'm not allowed to learn from the veterans on the board here.

[Jurassic Referee]

TussAgee, if you are an official, then you do not sit in the stands and berate, put down or otherwise comment on the officiating. EVER! If you can't say something positive, then you do not say anything. Quite simply, it is unprofessional and it also shows a lack of integrity.

Take a look at p.75 of the rule book - the Officials Code of Ethics. You will see the following:

"Officials shall remain mindful that their conduct influences the respect that student-athletes, coaches and the public hold for the profession".

Your fellow students know that you are an official. What do you think their thoughts are when they see you berating the officials at a game? Especially to the point of getting ejected?

You can still be a fan and cheer your team on. Believe it or not, you can do so without dumping on the officials too.

Think about it.

Please.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 15th, 2006 at 03:15 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes
Officals: Bryan Kersey, Doug Sirmons, Roger Ayers

I was observed by Doug at camp in Orlando in '04. I liked him a lot, seemed to have a very good demeanor and was positive toward me. We had a good game and Doug gave me big ups for clock awareness.

I mentioned this story at the time, but I had a play where I had just called a block at one end of the floor. A close play, but clearly a block. Then a minute or two later, there was a similar play, tho not quite as much contact. I sort of had a conversation in my head, "Kind of marginal, but had a very similar one down there. Ok, grab it." Called a block.

The funny thing was that when we reviewed the tape of the game, Doug's comments on that play were almost exactly the same as my self-conversation. "Didn't really affect the play, Chuck, but you just had the similar one on the other end, so I see why you called it."

Made me laugh at the time. Anyway, that's my Doug Sirmons story.

[drinkeii]

This thread has been done over and over, every now and then. I know i'm gonna get creamed for this, but I have to agree with the original poster in his frustration with the officiating in a game. Maybe saying something wasn't right, but there is a very pervasive attitude in basketball officiating that I do not see in soccer or swimming, which I do both, that regardless of what kind of call or no-call is made, it HAS to be right because you can never question the judgement of another official. Whether it was completely a judgement call, or completely wrong based on the rules (simply by asking the official afterwards what he based the call on), there is an attitude that it cannot be wrong.

I'm not saying I'm qualified necessarily to judge, but this attitude seems to be in direct conflict with the idea that basketball officials are always trying to improve themselves. How do you improve if when you do things wrong, no one is allowed to let you know this?

On a related note, our chapter actually has a bylaw stating that officials are not permitted to express disagreement by word or action with calls or no calls in a game they are spectating at. I really disagree with having a rule like this. It seems to bring up a situation every year or two where someone crossed the line... but in most cases, it is way over a simple "disagreement" by verbally or physically saying something. In some cases, an official has gone out on to the floor (after regulation before OT) to berate an official, or gone into the officials locker room to do the same. THIS is a problem. But I don't think we need a rule like that...seems in America, I'm suppposed to be entitled to express my opinion.

And we all know there are officials that make mistakes or don't know some rules. I'm not saying I'm not one of them or that I'm better than them.

I'm just tired of the "no one is ever wrong, regardless of how wrong they are" attitude.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by drinkeii
This thread has been done over and over, every now and then. I know i'm gonna get creamed for this, but I have to agree with the original poster in his frustration with the officiating in a game. Maybe saying something wasn't right, but there is a very pervasive attitude in basketball officiating that I do not see in soccer or swimming, which I do both, that regardless of what kind of call or no-call is made, it HAS to be right because you can never question the judgement of another official. Whether it was completely a judgement call, or completely wrong based on the rules (simply by asking the official afterwards what he based the call on), there is an attitude that it cannot be wrong.

I'm not saying I'm qualified necessarily to judge, but this attitude seems to be in direct conflict with the idea that basketball officials are always trying to improve themselves. How do you improve if when you do things wrong, no one is allowed to let you know this?

On a related note, our chapter actually has a bylaw stating that officials are not permitted to express disagreement by word or action with calls or no calls in a game they are spectating at. I really disagree with having a rule like this. It seems to bring up a situation every year or two where someone crossed the line... but in most cases, it is way over a simple "disagreement" by verbally or physically saying something. In some cases, an official has gone out on to the floor (after regulation before OT) to berate an official, or gone into the officials locker room to do the same. THIS is a problem. But I don't think we need a rule like that...seems in America, I'm suppposed to be entitled to express my opinion.

And we all know there are officials that make mistakes or don't know some rules. I'm not saying I'm not one of them or that I'm better than them.

I'm just tired of the "no one is ever wrong, regardless of how wrong they are" attitude.

IMO, you've not taken enough time to read the posts for this thread. I don't see anyone saying they're never wrong. In fact, most everyone here admits they miss calls. True, we all come here to get better but when has an official been supported here for berating a fellow official?

Officials don't get to the level of this game (original sitch) by not knowing the rules. I also think it's funny how you disagree with your associations bylaw about an official hassling another official. I'm suprised associations even need that bylaw. Isn't that a combination of common-sense and common-curtesy? IF YOU are someone who is qualified to help them, don't do it in front of others. This type of help is best given and received in private.....and probably not within 5 minutes of the game ending.

Free speech? Free speech? Is that the arguement you really want to offer here? If that's the case then you would mind if I tell you to..........o-nevermind. I don't think this is an issue of free speech, but more one of curtesy, respect, understanding, self-control and a sense of brotherhood.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

IMO, you've not taken enough time to read the posts for this thread. I don't see anyone saying they're never wrong. In fact, most everyone here admits they miss calls. True, we all come here to get better but when has an official been supported here for berating a fellow official?

Officials don't get to the level of this game (original sitch) by not knowing the rules. I also think it's funny how you disagree with your associations bylaw about an official hassling another official. I'm suprised associations even need that bylaw. Isn't that a combination of common-sense and common-curtesy? IF YOU are someone who is qualified to help them, don't do it in front of others. This type of help is best given and received in private.....and probably not within 5 minutes of the game ending.

Free speech? Free speech? Is that the arguement you really want to offer here? If that's the case then you would mind if I tell you to..........o-nevermind. I don't think this is an issue of free speech, but more one of curtesy, respect, understanding, self-control and a sense of brotherhood.

I'm not saying that under any circumstances that it is appropriate during a game to complain to the officials on the court.

I am saying that the general consensus, which I get from people from my chapter, is that it is never appropriate to question another official. What they call is always the right call. This attitude is not carried by everyone in the chapter, but a number of the members feel this way. I understand we all judge things slightly differently, but from one game to the next, it would seem the rules could be enforced (or administered, if you don't like the term "enforced") more consistently. Playing styles change the game, but the rules don't change game to game.

One major problem with this sport is the range of what is acceptable for calls when compared to the rules. Many officials choose not to call specific things because they disagree with the rules, or choose to ignore things in favor of game flow. I tend to be a very rules-oriented person, but there are people who very clearly, through their statements, choose not to call things because they disagree with the rule. I can say this because the people i am thinking of have stated that verbally.

Again, I'm not saying I'm necessarily qualified to determine what is right or wrong. But based on the rules and cases, and what our interpreter says, there are a lot of people who simply choose not to do what they are told. Example: Several years ago, the rule stated that the assistant coaches cannot get up or approach the table for questions, etc (like checking timeouts). Many officials around me at the meeting stated it was a stupid rule, and that they would never give a technical for that kind of infraction, even though the rule states that it was required.

This is the kind of rule-ignoring i have a problem with. And when officials do this in a game (ignoring 3 seconds because they don't like the call, or because the coach asked for it), that seems like something that should be addressed. Not necessarily by me, as a spectator, or me, as a member of the chapter, but that should be addressed by someone. Our rules interpreter says one thing, and it seems like everyone just kind of does their own thing.

Just venting, I guess...

[Back In The Saddle]

There is a world of difference between mindlessly assuming the official on the floor is always right and understanding that your behavior as an official is always being observed and choosing not to act in ways that berate other officials publicly. I disagree with officials on the floor quite often, in rec., HS and college games. In any game I watch I'm critical of calls that are made. It's part of learning by observing others. But I calmly continue watching the game without indicating what I think.

I have also learned over the years that if I talk to the refs about specific situations, they'll often enlighten me as to something I missed in my observations. After all, they're 6 feet from the call and I'm 60 feet. They have an angle, I have a seat in the stands. Sometimes they'll tell me that they passed on that call for a very valid reason, and I have an opportunity to learn more about officiating philosophy from officials who are better than me. And yes, occassionally they'll admit that they kicked it or weren't in position to see it.

No, we're not perfect. Yes, most of us are trying to get better. No, it's not a secret society where we're expected to uphold each other no matter how dirty the deed. Yes, we are expected to hold our tounges when a commrade screws the pooch. No, that's not at all unreasonable. Yes, it is professional behavior.

And drinkeii, maybe it's time you set the rulebook aside and became more a student of the philosophy of the game. While it is important to thoroughly understand the rules of the game, it's more important to understand how to (and when not to) apply them. The rules exist to serve the game, not the other way around.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
There is a world of difference between mindlessly assuming the official on the floor is always right and understanding that your behavior as an official is always being observed and choosing not to act in ways that berate other officials publicly. I disagree with officials on the floor quite often, in rec., HS and college games. In any game I watch I'm critical of calls that are made. It's part of learning by observing others. But I calmly continue watching the game without indicating what I think.

I have also learned over the years that if I talk to the refs about specific situations, they'll often enlighten me as to something I missed in my observations. After all, they're 6 feet from the call and I'm 60 feet. They have an angle, I have a seat in the stands. Sometimes they'll tell me that they passed on that call for a very valid reason, and I have an opportunity to learn more about officiating philosophy from officials who are better than me. And yes, occassionally they'll admit that they kicked it or weren't in position to see it.

No, we're not perfect. Yes, most of us are trying to get better. No, it's not a secret society where we're expected to uphold each other no matter how dirty the deed. Yes, we are expected to hold our tounges when a commrade screws the pooch. No, that's not at all unreasonable. Yes, it is professional behavior.

And drinkeii, maybe it's time you set the rulebook aside and became more a student of the philosophy of the game. While it is important to thoroughly understand the rules of the game, it's more important to understand how to (and when not to) apply them. The rules exist to serve the game, not the other way around.

As I have always said - you can't play a game without rules. You can't have a game without rules. The rules are there to serve the game, but you can't play the game without them. And in basketball, there is way too much leeway (in my opinion) in how those rules are "interpreted", or calls are "passed on", even though it was a clear case of a rule being violated.

When you have a team down by 30-40, and someone on the lower team travels, and it is a minor thing, yes - i would consider that something to pass on. But in my opinion, when players do what they are supposed to do, according to the rules, and they are penalized for it, that is a problem - because the officials are more concerned with game flow than administering the rules. This leads to the current situation where players and coaches don't know the rules, and those that do, don't have any kind of advantage because the refs make a conscious decision to favor "the spirit of the game" over the actual rules which govern it.

How would olympic sports be if they decided that the officials for sports could just do whatever they felt would make a better game, instead of actually following the rules as written?

We see what this did to the NBA - in general, the game is run as "What makes a good show for the fans?" rather than actually having rules that are followed consistently. Travels happen all the time - but since they're followed by flashy plays, they get ignored, teaching younger kids that that kind of behavior is acceptable.

Again, more venting...

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by drinkeii

I'm not saying that under any circumstances that it is appropriate during a game to complain to the officials on the court.

I am saying that the general consensus, which I get from people from my chapter, is that it is never appropriate to question another official. What they call is always the right call. This attitude is not carried by everyone in the chapter, but a number of the members feel this way. I understand we all judge things slightly differently, but from one game to the next, it would seem the rules could be enforced (or administered, if you don't like the term "enforced") more consistently. Playing styles change the game, but the rules don't change game to game.

One major problem with this sport is the range of what is acceptable for calls when compared to the rules. Many officials choose not to call specific things because they disagree with the rules, or choose to ignore things in favor of game flow. I tend to be a very rules-oriented person, but there are people who very clearly, through their statements, choose not to call things because they disagree with the rule. I can say this because the people i am thinking of have stated that verbally.

Again, I'm not saying I'm necessarily qualified to determine what is right or wrong. But based on the rules and cases, and what our interpreter says, there are a lot of people who simply choose not to do what they are told. Example: Several years ago, the rule stated that the assistant coaches cannot get up or approach the table for questions, etc (like checking timeouts). Many officials around me at the meeting stated it was a stupid rule, and that they would never give a technical for that kind of infraction, even though the rule states that it was required.

This is the kind of rule-ignoring i have a problem with. And when officials do this in a game (ignoring 3 seconds because they don't like the call, or because the coach asked for it), that seems like something that should be addressed. Not necessarily by me, as a spectator, or me, as a member of the chapter, but that should be addressed by someone. Our rules interpreter says one thing, and it seems like everyone just kind of does their own thing.

Just venting, I guess...

Sounds like your problem should be with the association that you officiate with. I don't see that problem is myu association.

In fact, last night I worked the second game of a conference tourney 1st round doubleheader. At halftime of game 1, the R asked me if I had seen anything. I told him point blank that asst. coaches for both teams were standing and they needed to take care of it. This was after they had a conversation about a warning that was giving but wasn't put in the book.

Don't throw us all in the fire because your association isn't looking at what's being called.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Sounds like your problem should be with the association that you officiate with. I don't see that problem is myu association.

In fact, last night I worked the seond game of a conference tourney 1st round doubleheader. At halftime of game 1, the R asked me if I had seen anything, O told him point blank that asst. coaches for both teams were standing and they needed to take care of it. This was after they had a conversation about a warning that was giving but wasn't put in the book.

Don't throw us all in the fire because your association isn't looking at what's being called.

Well, maybe it is just our group - our soccer group and our swimming group are not like this either.