5 Second Call: Please help.

[IdahoRef]

When do you stop counting a 5 second call and where is it found in the book? I'm specifically trying to find out when the count is stopped. My Ref buddies tell me it stops as soon as one's head and shoulders get past the defenders torso, but I cannot find it.

[BktBallRef]

Here we go.

[JugglingReferee]

The 5-second count ends when the thrower-in releases the ball.








Ooooopppssss.. wrong 5-second call.

[Rick Durkee]

I believe the appropriate rule references are 4-10 which defines Closely Guarded, 4-23 which defines Guarding, and 9-10 which describes the violation for Closely Guarded.

I don't think there is any dispute that the count stops when the guarded player loses control of the ball (interrupted dribble, ball batted away, etc.) and when there is no defender within six feet of the player in control of the ball. The count also stops when a closely guarded player who is dribbling ends the dribble or when a closely guarded player who is holding the ball begins a dribble. I believe there is now reasonable agreement that if an offensive player sets a screen and is between the player in control of the ball and the player attempting to guard him, then the five second count should be stopped. Also, by NFHS rules, it need not be the same player doing the guarding for the entire five seconds. If A1 dribbled with B1 guarding him and then A1 moved and B2 was guarding him (and B1 no longer was) and one of them was within six feet during that time, then the count continues.

The definition and interpretation of guarding as it applies to the five second count is what can be controversial, particularly the language in 4-23-1 that reads "in the path of the offensive opponent." The book does not exactly define what that phrase means. Many use the "head and shoulders past he torso" as a guide, but some do not.

Here is a link to a thread that covers some of those topics.

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/10518

[JugglingReferee]

Ya, what he said.




(Nice post Rick.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by IdahoRef
When do you stop counting a 5 second call and where is it found in the book? I'm specifically trying to find out when the count is stopped. My Ref buddies tell me it stops as soon as one's head and shoulders get past the defenders torso, but I cannot find it.

NFHS rule 10-6-2 says "If a dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent".

The rationale used to cease a 5-second closely guarded count at the same time as the dribbler does that is:
- if the dribbler gets his head and shoulders past a defender, that defender has lost his "legal guarding position".
- because the defender has lost his "legal guarding position", the dribbler can then be no longer considered as being "closely guarded" by rule.
- iow, as the 5-second closely-guarded count only applies to a dribbler with a defender with LGP, the count should end when a dribbler gets his head and shoulders past that defender.

Make sense?

[chrs_schuster]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rule 10-6-2 says "If a dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent".

The rationale used to cease a 5-second closely guarded count at the same time as the dribbler does that is:
- if the dribbler gets his head and shoulders past a defender, that defender has lost his "legal guarding position".
- because the defender has lost his "legal guarding position", the dribbler can then be no longer considered as being "closely guarded" by rule.
- iow, as the 5-second closely-guarded count only applies to a dribbler with a defender with LGP, the count should end when a dribbler gets his head and shoulders past that defender.

Make sense?

Wow! Very well worded JR. Thats the best I've read on this site.

[Rick Durkee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rule 10-6-2 says "If a dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent".

The rationale used to cease a 5-second closely guarded count at the same time as the dribbler does that is:
- if the dribbler gets his head and shoulders past a defender, that defender has lost his "legal guarding position"....

I agree completely with your interpretation, and the language in the next sentence of 10.6.2 is a good additional hint. Do you have any evidence that NFHS uses that rationale. I hope you say, "yes" and tell me there has been a published interpretation. I didn't use the citation because I didn't konw if it was an official "rationale". I would love to be able to cite it with complete confidence.

[michligj]

This was a point of emphasis in the 2004-05 rule book. It specifically defines when the count should be terminated, including when "a closely guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defenseive player, the count has ended."

[Rick Durkee]

Originally posted by michligj
This was a point of emphasis in the 2004-05 rule book. It specifically defines when the count should be terminated, including when "a closely guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defenseive player, the count has ended."

Thanks!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rick Durkee

[/B]

Do you have any evidence that NFHS uses that rationale. I hope you say, "yes" and tell me there has been a published interpretation. I didn't use the citation because I didn't konw if it was an official "rationale". I would love to be able to cite it with complete confidence. [/B][/QUOTE]I don't think there has ever been a statement from the FED explicitly stating that a closely-guarded situation ceases when a defender gets beat. I know that it has been taught that way at some clinics and camps. Stringing the different rules together seem to lead to it also.

For instance,rule 4-7-2(b) basically says the same thing imo- "If a guard has obtained a legal guarding poition, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact". The dribbler is responsible because the defender still had LGP. If the dribbler gets by and the contact isn't on the defender's torso, by inference the foul is on the defender because he didn't maintain LGP. And....if you don't have LGP, you also can't have a closely-guarded count.

Iow, I think that there's enough in the book now to back up that rationale.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by michligj
This was a point of emphasis in the 2004-05 rule book. It specifically defines when the count should be terminated, including when "a closely guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defenseive player, the count has ended."

Good catch!