What is with this attitude

[Malcolm Tucker]

It seems to me that people in USA think FIBA is a second rate something.

In the USA it appears you have various Rules for different levels of competition.
ie: NBA WNBA NCAA NFHS etc

The rest of the world uses one set of Rules. Those put out by FIBA.
Australia's highest competition the NBL uses FIBA(modified).

FIBA is not just about the Olympics.

The FIBA rules are used in under 10 years domestic competition and up through to the World Championship and Olympics.

I believe that all variants of the rules are 70% to 80% the same. The philosophy of the game is basically the same but yet I think some of the posts I read here show a pedantic attitude by some officials and a lack of ability to manage coaches and players. An official who gives a coach or player tech too quickly is not helping the game or fellow officials who do later games with the coach.

Our referee levels are
0
1
2
3 State
4 National
FIBA There are less than 20 of these officials in Australia.

Level 2 and above officials in my opinion would not have any problem refereing in USA at the appropriate level after some work with your rules.

[Tim Roden]

I'm sorry you feel that way. In the U.S. we have to put up with the different rules at various levels because we can. Your FIBA rules are fine except we never see them until we apply at USA basketball to start calling international ball. None of our courts have your lane markings so nobody uses your rules. We arn't putting you down, we just can't relate to you until the olympics or the World professional tournament. Hay, most of us even put down the NBA's(Not Basketball Anymore) rules.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Malcolm Tucker
It seems to me that people in USA think FIBA is a second rate something.

In the USA it appears you have various Rules for different levels of competition.
ie: NBA WNBA NCAA NFHS etc

The rest of the world uses one set of Rules. Those put out by FIBA.
Australia's highest competition the NBL uses FIBA(modified).

FIBA is not just about the Olympics.

The FIBA rules are used in under 10 years domestic competition and up through to the World Championship and Olympics.

I believe that all variants of the rules are 70% to 80% the same. The philosophy of the game is basically the same but yet I think some of the posts I read here show a pedantic attitude by some officials and a lack of ability to manage coaches and players. An official who gives a coach or player tech too quickly is not helping the game or fellow officials who do later games with the coach.

Our referee levels are
0
1
2
3 State
4 National
FIBA There are less than 20 of these officials in Australia.

Level 2 and above officials in my opinion would not have any problem refereing in USA at the appropriate level after some work with your rules.

Don't take it personally, as Tim says we in the US are not
exposed to FIBA all that much and it's kind of irrelavent
to us (not a bad thing, just true). We also like to joke
about T's & coach/player/referee interaction but believe me
most of what is said is in jest.

BTW, I find it cute that you claim to have "... one set of
Rules. Those put out by FIBA. Australia's highest
competition the NBL uses FIBA(modified)." That would make
2 sets of rules no?

[Mark Padgett]

I'm usually the one who refers to FIBA as FEEBLE. My typical ugly American bias is for some international (or worse - Euro) self-appointed governing body with the audacity to think they know better how the strictly American game of basketball (actually, invented by a Canadian working in the US) should be played.

It reminds me of the outcry from the international community when our professional soccer (yes - I said soccer, not football, which is an entirely different game altogether) league fiddled with the center line offsides rule a few years ago. (BTW -soccer is that game for kids who can't use their hands)

Do we have different sets of rules in the US for different levels of competition? Of course. So what? It's for the same reason Major League Baseball doesn't use aluminum bats, and the NFL insistes players be down by contact. As people get bigger and stronger, they need rules that take into consideration their increased size and strength.

So...not all of us feel the reason we make pejorative remarks regarding FIBA rules is because we are not familiar with them; some of us feel that way because we feel US basketball organizations have an inherent right to make those rules.

[BktBallRef]

Mark is exactly right. We have different rules, which are essentially different rules for different age groups. Most kids play by the Natinal Federation of High Schools rules. NCAA rules are designed to allow the more mature players to grow and use their skills. Obviously, the NBA is in a league of it's own. It's entertainment but it's also adult basketball at it's highest level.

As Mark said, this may sound like the ugly American but basketball on the international level has not reached the level of American basketball. International teams that have taken our collegiate kids to the limit are usually made up of professional league players. I do not believe the best amatuer players in the world would be any match for the 2001 Duke Blue Devils, MSU Spartans, or UNC Tar Heels.

Don't use the Olympics as an example. The professional players that we send now are the best in the world. However, it's a group of superstars, not a team. There probably isn't an international team in the world that could have beaten the 1989 Pistons, the 1996 Bulls or the 2000 Lakers.

As far as the World Championship goes, it simply has no meaning to most American basketball fans. Most feel that the best basketball team in the world is the team that wins the NBA Finals.

I'm sorry but 99% of American basketball fans feel this way and there's really nothing that can be said to change their minds.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
I'm usually the one who refers to FIBA as FEEBLE. My typical ugly American bias is for some international (or worse - Euro) self-appointed governing body with the audacity to think they know better how the strictly American game of basketball (actually, invented by a Canadian working in the US) should be played.

Mark, as an Australian referee that uses FEEBLE rules, I have a couple of points. Firstly I have no problem with different competitions having different rules. Obiously the NBA is more about entertainment than basketball. Equally, the Olympics (and World Championships) is about equality and playing to a set of rules that are the same all around the world. I think it is interesting to note that FIBA and NBA (I can't speak for NF or NCAA) rules seem to be slowly gravitating towards each other and forming a compromise.

However, I do have a problem with this concept that because an American (or a Canadian working in the USA) developed the original game, then no other country or nationality can have any input as to the way the modern game is played. According to that argument shouldn't all American car manufacturers be banned from modifying the way an engine works as the original was developed in Europe? And shouldn't we still be playing according to Naismith's original 13 rules?

Let's face it, basketball is a global game, that is part of what makes it great. There are more non-americans than Americans playing the game. Even at the elite level (NBA) there is an ever increasing number of non_americans playing (and excelling) so to say that basketball is a strictly American sport is conceited and blantently incorrect.

To those of you that have stated that the Olympics is not considered the pinnicle of basketball in America, I can understand your viewpoint, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, even Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan have stated that winning Olympic gold was the highlight of their career as it shows that they are truely the best in the world. Why not listen to those that have succeeded in every aspect of basketball, and indeed life?

Phew...now that I have that off my chest, I look forward to the can of worms that I have opened here!

[JeffRef]

I don't think Americans feel FIBA is second rate. Because exposure to Fiba rules is very limited in the U.S., it's just different and with anything different or new comes a bit of scrutiny or skepticism...it's just human nature. Not everyone has the ability to see something different than the norm and be receptive to it right away.

In Canada (probably the most similar country to Australia), we have multiple sets of rules. I work 4 different sets of rules. Two sets are FIBA based with some modifications and the other two are NCAA based with modifications. I grew up on FIBA rules, but having the opportunity to learn NCAA rules has changed my opinion. I, along with many other refs, coaches, and players prefer NCAA based rules to FIBA.

So without knocking FIBA rules, I'll simply side with my closer neighbors to the south.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by JeffRef
I, along with many other refs, coaches, and players prefer NCAA based rules to FIBA.

So without knocking FIBA rules, I'll simply side with my closer neighbors to the south.

Since you are obviously familiar with both NCAA and FIBA rules, what (to you) are the advantages that NCAA has over FIBA?

Is it mainly mechanics and the way in which games are run, or is it the actual rule differences that you believe are superior?

I would be really interested in your response.

Cheers

[JeffRef]

Originally posted by Oz Referee

Since you are obviously familiar with both NCAA and FIBA rules, what (to you) are the advantages that NCAA has over FIBA?

Is it mainly mechanics and the way in which games are run, or is it the actual rule differences that you believe are superior?

I would be really interested in your response.

Cheers

The mechanics aren't that different. It's the rules and flow I enjoy more. To list all the differences would take too long, but here are my favorites:

AP instead of jump balls
Penalty/Bonus (1-1 on the 7th, 2 on the 10th)
Time outs (number of and calling of/ full or 30 secs)
Playing Time (halves instead of quarters)
Substitutions (when permitted and when you bring them in)

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by JeffRef

The mechanics aren't that different. It's the rules and flow I enjoy more. To list all the differences would take too long, but here are my favorites:

AP instead of jump balls
Penalty/Bonus (1-1 on the 7th, 2 on the 10th)
Time outs (number of and calling of/ full or 30 secs)
Playing Time (halves instead of quarters)
Substitutions (when permitted and when you bring them in)

Interesting, FIBA used to have 1-1 penalty but that changed about 8 years ago. We also used to play in halves, but that only changed last year. Seems to me, that NCAA is fairly similar to the FIBA rules that I started refereeing with (some 15 years ago). While the current FIBA rules are moving more closely towards NBA (or vice versa).

[Brian Watson]

I wonder how many people in America are certifed international fiba refs. My guess is not many.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
I wonder how many people in America are certifed international fiba refs. My guess is not many.

Your point is? To my knowledge there is a very limited of international FIBA rules in the world (ie those that can referee Olympics or World Championships). Or did you mean referees in the USA that know FIBA rules?

Please clarify.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Oz Referee

...
However, even Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan have stated that winning Olympic gold was the highlight of their career as it shows that they are truely the best in the world. Why not listen to those that have succeeded in every aspect of basketball, and indeed life?

Easy enough to say once you've attained the succes they have
in the NBA. Frankly, I don't hear many players in the US
saying "When I grow up I want to win the Olympic gold
for USA basketball!" In fact, to be quite blunt, non-US
basketball (euro, etc) is viewed as a fall back position
for those who don't attract college or NBA attention. Over
here we call it the minor leagues.

[BktBallRef]

First, the FIBA rules have nothing to do with why Americans prefer our own version of basketball over what the rest of the world does. We simply have the best basketball in the world here. It seems as if this is what this discussion has boiled down to. But to discuss the rules before we get into the rest of it, as has been said, we only see FIBA rules every 4 years. That's why we're so unconcerned with it. And, as Mark said, we consider the professional leagues overseas as minor league. If a player can't make the NBA, then he goes to Europe. He can generally make a lot of money and can sometimes be the team's star player. Yet, he couldn't make the team in the NBA.

Originally posted by Oz Referee

I think it is interesting to note that FIBA and NBA (I can't speak for NF or NCAA) rules seem to be slowly gravitating towards each other and forming a compromise.

And why do you think that is? Could it be that FIBA has moved more towards the NBA rule standard since the NBA became involved in international play in 1992?

However, I do have a problem with this concept that because an American (or a Canadian working in the USA) developed the original game, then no other country or nationality can have any input as to the way the modern game is played.

I don't think anyone is saying that. The simple fact is that most Americans see the international game every 4 years. But we're exposed to HS, NCAA, and NBA from October to June of each year. For the most part, the level of play in FIBA is not what it is in the USA. Perhaps that's why some refer to it as "FEEBLE."

Let's face it, basketball is a global game, that is part of what makes it great. There are more non-americans than Americans playing the game.

I'm sure you can get us the figures to support such a bold statement.

Even at the elite level (NBA) there is an ever increasing number of non_americans playing (and excelling) so to say that basketball is a strictly American sport is conceited and blantently incorrect.

Yes, some international players have been successful in the NBA. I'm sure more will in the future. But it's still a very small percentage, easily less than 10%.

To those of you that have stated that the Olympics is not considered the pinnicle of basketball in America, I can understand your viewpoint, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, even Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan have stated that winning Olympic gold was the highlight of their career as it shows that they are truely the best in the world.

WHOA! Okay, here we go! I've followed Michael Jordan's career since he was a freshman at North Carolina in 1981. I saw him play in high school since he only lived about 90 miles away. I have never read or heard him say that winning the Olympic Gold medals were the highlight of his career. Can you provide references? I'm sure that it's one of the highlights of his career because he represented his country. But it certainly wasn't because it was played under FIBA rules.

He and Magic knew who the best players in world are long before the 1992 Olympics.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Oz Referee

I think it is interesting to note that FIBA and NBA (I can't speak for NF or NCAA) rules seem to be slowly gravitating towards each other and forming a compromise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
And why do you think that is? Could it be that FIBA has moved more towards the NBA rule standard since the NBA became involved in international play in 1992?

Let's face it, basketball is a global game, that is part of what makes it great. There are more non-americans than Americans playing the game.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
I'm sure you can get us the figures to support such a bold statement.



1. Funny, I would have said that the NBA is moving just as much towards FIBA as FIBA is to the NBA. Have a look at the "illegal defence" rule which is the most obvious (but not only) example.

2. Do the math. Say the percentage of Americans that play organised basketball (not counting pickup games) is 10% that is approximately 30 million people. Which is less that 1% of the total population of the world. Just look at countries like China, Brazil, Germany, Nigeria, Australia, Canada, etc where basketball is already very popular, and growing exponentially.