Varsity player dunks during JV halftime

[deecee]

however he might not get in and play but you are assessing him a technical which would count towards something -- for one it would show up in the box score and what if you give him a tech and he says to you "that's @#$# bull@#$@# why are you being an a$$"

now what?

another T and an ejection for someone who isnt on the team - how did this thread get here? seems absurd to me looks like some are just fishing to be overly judicious in their responsibility. I hate to say this but I have worked with some refs that I just wish they had blinders on.

If the manager dunks, go get the coach and tell him to get the kid a uniform.

[WARDZY]

I haven't read through this ENTIRE post, but I have read most of it.

If you don't T the varsity guy, and the 6'4" guy on the other JV team sees him do that, he may think it's ok for him to do it. Are you going to T him, but just ask the V player to leave the floor?

Just something to think about. Common sense!

WARDZY

[Jurassic Referee]

Lah me, 5 freaking pages and nobody cites the rules:

NFHS rule 10-3-4 says that the rule applies to all "team members".

NFHS rule 4-34-4 says that a "team member" is "a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player".

Is the varsity player a "team member"? Nope, unless he's wearing a jv uni, he's listed on the jv roster, and he's eligible to play in that game. If he passes all of those criteria, nail him. If not, just shoo him off the floor and get the AD to keep him off.

A better question might be---- Is it a "T" if a coach or manager dunks in pre-game?.....a strict reading of the rules sez "no" imo. They're "bench personnel" as per R4-34-2, but they aren't "team members" as defined in R4-34-4.

Of course, if a coach/manager dunked, I'd call it an unsporting act under general principles and nail the coach/manager anyway. That's the spirit and intent of that rule as far as I'm concerned.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 10th, 2006 at 10:06 AM]

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Of course, if a coach/manager dunked, I'd call it an unsporting act under general principles and nail the coach/manager anyway. That's the spirit and intent of that rule as far as I'm concerned.

So you WOULD T a non "team member" for a dunk in pre-game warm-ups.

I think that is what the debate/question is here...you have a non "team member" dunking in warm-ups. Who is ultimately in control of what goes on during the warm-up period. The Coach maybe? Is it unsporting to have "people", (players, managers, coaches, team members, mascots, fans) out there in the lay-up lines and dunking? Who's in charge?

Is the official in charge of keeping only team members in the lay-up line...or is the official in charge of administering penalties to those breaking the rules in the lay-up line...or both?

My philosophy of game management would probably be to shoo the non team members away...but, it is an interesting discussion since we have an official who says he has been instructed by his board interp to issue at least one T to the bench/coach...so if that is what his board interp wants, who am I to say they are wrong.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude

1) So you WOULD T a non "team member" for a dunk in pre-game warm-ups.

2) I think that is what the debate/question is here...you have a non "team member" dunking in warm-ups.

Well, actually I would T a member of that team's bench personnel, as defined in rule 4-34-2--"Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team,including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statisticians."

2) A varsity player coming out of the stands is not only not a "team member"(4-34-4),he is also not a part of the "bench personnel"(4-34-2) either. You don't have to be a "team member" to be part of a team's "bench personnel", Dude. They're just different sub-groups of the same team. Iow, that varsity player does not meet the definition of anyone who is officially part of the jv team, according to rule 4-34. Ergo, treat him the same as a fan coming on the floor.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, actually I would T a member of that team's bench personnel, as defined in rule 4-34-2--"Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team,including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statisticians."

2) A varsity player coming out of the stands is not only not a "team member"(4-34-4),he is also not a part of the "bench personnel"(4-34-2) either. You don't have to be a "team member" to be part of a team's "bench personnel", Dude. They're just different sub-groups of the same team. Iow, that varsity player does not meet the definition of anyone who is officially part of the jv team, according to rule 4-34. Ergo, treat him the same as a fan coming on the floor.

Fair enough...and I realized the two sub-groups you were talking about JR...I just think it's fun to beat a dead horse once in awhile.

Now, to further beat this dead equine...
at what point does the coach, in your opinion, have accoutability/responsability for people running around dunking during his warm-ups? (Assuming he is allowing this Varsity player to participate in the warm-ups)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude
[/B]

at what point does the coach, in your opinion, have accoutability/responsability for people running around dunking during his warm-ups? (Assuming he is allowing this Varsity player to participate in the warm-ups) [/B][/QUOTE]Crowd responsibility lies with home or game management. If there isn't a representative of home or game management there, then the home coach becomes home management too. That's why it's always a good idea imo to find out asap at the beginning of a game who game management will be that night, so you can easily find them if you need them.

Iow, if the coach is also home/game management, then it's up to him to get the idjits off the court during pre-game warm-ups.

If anybody cares, this ain't my opinion either. The pertinent rules citations are R2-8-1NOTE and casebook play 2.8.1COMMENT.

...and... RookieDude knew this one all along too....he ain't a rookie and he knows how to teach.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 10th, 2006 at 09:00 PM]

[Jimgolf]

The player is on the varsity, and the officials know this (otherwise the thread would have a different title). For those who still think this should be a technical foul, why would the JV be assessed, instead of the V?

IMHO, this is a game management issue. This is an unauthorized person on the court. Have him removed from the gym.

[mplagrow]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
The player is on the varsity, and the officials know this (otherwise the thread would have a different title). For those who still think this should be a technical foul, why would the JV be assessed, instead of the V?

IMHO, this is a game management issue. This is an unauthorized person on the court. Have him removed from the gym.

I hope you mean removed from the court. Why from the gym? Would you then bar him from re-entering for the Varsity game? Holy cow, he didn't kill anybody. He's being a clown. Ask the coach to get him off the floor and keep him off the floor. This thread is getting more ridiculous the longer it goes.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mplagrow

I hope you mean removed from the court. Why from the gym? Would you then bar him from re-entering for the Varsity game? Holy cow, he didn't kill anybody. He's being a clown. Ask the coach to get him off the floor and keep him off the floor. This thread is getting more ridiculous the longer it goes.

If you ejected a fan, would you still let them sit in the stands?

Fwiw, I'd do exactly what Jim suggested too. That varsity player is just another fan who came out on the floor and interfered with the game. He should be outa the gym for the duration of that game, the same as you would do for any other fan. If you don't, you legitimize the act. I could care less if his coach let him participate in the varsity game after that; there's a report going in anyway on it. The idea is to have a little deterrance go along the act, instead of not doing anything - which is exactly what letting him sit in the stands is imo.

[Husker John]

I will assume (I know what happens), that the V game was later. Couldn't this dunk have been deemed a dunk during the Varsity Warm-ups and assess the T for that game?

Realistically, I have seen a number of varsity players warmup (usually somewhat unsupervised) at half-time. Is there a formal warm-up time for the Varsity to warm-up? (ie 10 minutes prior..)

Just a rec coach trying to learn.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Husker John
1) I will assume (I know what happens), that the V game was later. Couldn't this dunk have been deemed a dunk during the Varsity Warm-ups and assess the T for that game?

2) Is there a formal warm-up time for the Varsity to warm-up? (ie 10 minutes prior..)

Just a rec coach trying to learn.

1) Only if you also think that it's OK to "T" up a varsity coach during his game for a remark that he mighta made while sitting in the stands during the jv game. Hmmmmm, that's not a bad idea, come to think of it.
The dunk happened during the jv game, not the varsity game. We can't penalize a varsity player for something that didn't happen during his pre-game warm-up or game. We don't have the jurisdiction to do that.

2) The official's jurisdiction over the varsity players starts when we come out on the floor for their game- which is usually 15 minutes before their tip-off. Our jurisdiction ends when all of the officials have left the visual confines of the court after their game ended. Anything that happens related to the varsity players before or after the officials' jurisdiction period really isn't of any concern of the officials. It just ain't our problem.

[Ignats75]

As a JV official that just passed my Varsity Certification last night, I am having a hard time with this. I have asked a bunch of different referees and have yet to get a solid answer. Everyone's interpretation is his own.

Personally, I would T the player as bench personnel and therefore indirectly get the coach. If nothing else, he's wearing a seatbelt the rest of the night and that's not a bad thing in and of itself. Plus, IMHO, he deserves it for having a lack of control over what's going on with his team during his game.

The definition of Bench personnel includes the disclaimer "is not limited to" which to me spreads a large blanket to cover anything unusual. If the V kid is warrming up with the JV, he is at minimum, part of bench personnel as far as I can see.

However, the rules interpreter saying to add him into the JV book and wack the coach again, seems heavy handed. Even if a coach is the victim.

[deecee]

I would love to see an official do that -- if you are my partner and i tell you what i think about this and you still whack the kid then put him in the book and whack again for not being in the book -- im sorry but you just hung yourself out to dry IMO.

I would never back my partner up in this (i wouldnt say anything against him) but i would address all coaches, admin, what not his direction and let the whole flame hit him. pretty much i would distance myself real quick. The weird thing is I have backed up partners who have had the rules wrong on several occasions but this is going overboard -- T a kid as part of a team he is not, then another T because he wasnt in the book, then guaranteed another T on the coach because by now any coach would want to strangle any official for this (if i was a ref I would be a man and let the coach stangle me), then eject the coach, then if there is no assistant coach forfeit the game, then I guarantee youd better run faster than The roardrunner out of that gym. And the whole time this will suck for me as your partner because I will be guilty by association.

Not to mention the kids who still wont have any clue wtf just happened -- but at least you got your game fee so enjoy it.