Technical foul for too many players

[Bobby]

Is a technical foul for too many players count against a team's count of seven for a team foul penalty situation?

During a Fed rules game Thursday, I didn't score it as a team foul but the timekeeper said it was.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Bobby
Is a technical foul for too many players count against a team's count of seven for a team foul penalty situation?

During a Fed rules game Thursday, I didn't score it as a team foul but the timekeeper said it was.

The timekeeper was correct.

[ace]

Was the ball live (ie, in play.)?
Friday night, big varsity game, for 2nd place in the district I think I overheard. I don't read stats. I'm C table side dead ball in new backcourt. I beckon subs in, see two walk on the court, THOUGHT I saw both walk off so I drop my hand and put my whistle in my mouth and turn down to the front court, partner sounds whistle, hands the ball to thrower, I turn around and low and behold 6 players on the court. Just as he's throwing the ball in the 6th SPRINTS off the court(ball was still OOB). Visiting coach wants the 'T'. I told the visiting coach that I can't penalize the home team for my mistake and that he would have gotten the same respect and he appreciated that, and moved on about his business.

Had I realized there were 6 players BEFORE my co handed the player the ball I would have simply hit my whistle and gotten the player off. But in this situation he made the effort, I was gunna give it to him. After all, I screwed up.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ace
Was the ball live (ie, in play.)?
Friday night, big varsity game, for 2nd place in the district I think I overheard. I don't read stats. I'm C table side dead ball in new backcourt. I beckon subs in, see two walk on the court, THOUGHT I saw both walk off so I drop my hand and put my whistle in my mouth and turn down to the front court, partner sounds whistle, hands the ball to thrower, I turn around and low and behold 6 players on the court. Just as he's throwing the ball in the 6th SPRINTS off the court(ball was still OOB). Visiting coach wants the 'T'. I told the visiting coach that I can't penalize the home team for my mistake and that he would have gotten the same respect and he appreciated that, and moved on about his business.

Had I realized there were 6 players BEFORE my co handed the player the ball I would have simply hit my whistle and gotten the player off. But in this situation he made the effort, I was gunna give it to him. After all, I screwed up.

Yes, you screwed up, but not in the manner in which you think.
You failed to penalize six team members participating during a live ball. Who cares that the ball was still OOB? It was live once it was handed to the thrower.
First you messed up by miscounting and then on top of that you screwed the opponents by not properly assessing the T.

[ace]

So in a close 5A district (2 to 4 point) ball, for a possible playoff place ball game, you're gunna penalize a team for an OFFICIALS mistake when it had no direct effect on the play because the guy was hauling off the court before anyone could defend him?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ace
So in a close 5A district (2 to 4 point) ball, for a possible playoff place ball game, you're gunna penalize a team for an OFFICIALS mistake when it had no direct effect on the play because the guy was hauling off the court before anyone could defend him?

Yep, I'm going to enforce the rule of HS basketball. The teams come to that contest with the expectation that the game is going to called according to the rules, not by the feelings and whims of the individual officials.

In the play in question, the officials already made one mistake, and so did the team BTW since they miscommunicated and didn't hustle off the court in a timely manner, don't compound this error by purposely committing another one.

What if you had administered that throw-in to the wrong team and they inbounded and scored? Are you going to wipe all of that away because it was an officials' mistake?

Sorry partner, but there are rules to cover this stuff because, believe it or not, it has all happened before, probably long before you were even born, and the people whose opinions matter got together and codified what was judged to be a fair resolution. That is what needs to be followed.

Who are you to come along and handle the NFHS game in your own way?

[Snake~eyes]

I love how this is an officials mistake, its not my fault they put 6 guys on the court, its not my fault that the coach sent in two guys and only took one off.

Counting to make sure its 5 vs. 5 is preventative officiating - if I don't count or mess up the count its not my fault they're playing with 6.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Counting to make sure its 5 vs. 5 is preventative officiating - if I don't count or mess up the count its not my fault they're playing with 6.

Having 6 players on the court is not your fault. However, letting 6 players play is most certainly your fault. And I say this as an official who has had this happen to me. Nothing can happen until you hand the ball to the inbounder. So just hold onto it for 2 more seconds and count the players. I learned that lesson the hard way.

JMHO

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Bobby
Is a technical foul for too many players count against a team's count of seven for a team foul penalty situation?

Bobby, in HS all direct technical fouls count toward the bonus. The only time a T does not count toward the bonus is when that T is charged indirectly to a head coach due to the behavior of bench personnel. And even in that case, in order to give the head coach his indirect, you would've had to whack somebody on the bench with a direct T.

[Brad]

see two walk on the court, THOUGHT I saw both walk off so I drop my hand and put my whistle in my mouth

Don't THINK ... KNOW!!!

Next time count the players on both teams. Every single time that you have subs. Don't point and count 1..2..3..4..5 - just look at the court and make sure that there are 5 on each team. Normally I find 2 and 3 at a time -- that is, "OK, there's 3 white players, ok there's the other 2" -- that makes it pretty simple.

As to whether or not to assess the technical. You have the ball being inbounded with 6 players on the court and one running off. It's hard to get away from the rule on this one, but it sounds like the coach at least bought your explanation. I can certainly understand your not wanting to give the tech there for your screw-up.

Bottom line: Don't let it happen again. I've had two 6-players-on-the-court techs and they both happened my first year. After that I learned. I've been in several games where I've had to tweet my whistle to make sure that my partner didn't inbound the ball because one team had 6 out there and no one else noticed.

Pay attention to details like this and you'll keep yourself out of trouble. Then you won't have to decide how you are going to enforce a penalty or not enforce one - because you will have avoided the situation altogether!

[BBall_Junkie]

Yeah, what Brad said.

You should know better. After all your name is ACE (Always Count Everyone)!

[IdahoRef]

I'm a new official. If this happens to me sometime, what is the proper thing to do? Must I call a "T"? Man, I hope this doesn't happen to me! Thanks.

[bgtg19]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Bobby, in HS all direct technical fouls count toward the bonus. The only time a T does not count toward the bonus is when that T is charged indirectly to a head coach due to the behavior of bench personnel. And even in that case, in order to give the head coach his indirect, you would've had to whack somebody on the bench with a direct T.

I'm just reposting Chuck's information to re-emphasize it for all the officials who are unsure in this area. Until I conceived of this fact in exactly this manner -- all direct Ts count toward the bonus -- I always had to figure out whether or not it counted; now I don't have to think about it, I just apply the clear rule.

IdahoRef, it is my opinion that if that happens to you, you *do* need to assess the T. I agree with everyone who says you've got to work to avoid it, but if it happens, assess the T.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by IdahoRef
I'm a new official. If this happens to me sometime, what is the proper thing to do? Must I call a "T"? Man, I hope this doesn't happen to me! Thanks.

• Count 'em, count 'em again, and then count them a third time to make sure there are really six.
• Blow your whistle, raising your fist is technically required but seldom done.
• Now everybody is looking at you, turn to the offending coach and say, "Coach, you've got six on the floor."
• Hustle to the FRA and inform the book that you have a T on white/black/whomever.
• Turn to the non-offending coach and ask, "Coach, who will shoot your free throws?"
• Administer the free throws like you would for any other T situation
• Administer the throw-in at the half line, opposite the table
• Mutter at yourself under your breath for having allowed them to start with six to begin with