Threats and profanity

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by deecee
i went by what the question described -- if thats how it went down you mean to say you would disagree -- as for reach fould you know what i mean lets say handcheck instead.

how would you react to a player who said "i hope you f#$%(*^ die" to another player or even you -- because if its just one technical i think thats not severe enough.

It depends on the game. It depends on how loud it was said. It depends on the level I am working. All language is not treated the same by me. I do not believe in "automatic" responses like I used to. I have learned over my career that many factors play a role in what I will do. I know I do not call hand checking the same way every single game. It will vary based on who the players are. This situation is not that different.

Peace

[JCrow]

"I hope YOU F@#$@$ing die".

Are you sure this wasn't the X-WIVES LEAGUE?

[deecee]

say that loudly to an injured player or in her direction you would do_________

[rotationslim]

Going to get roasted here.. but I will throw it out anyway.

If at halftime a rational, calm fan approaches you and asks a simple question, respectfully, why not choose to be an amassador for the game and answer.

NOW I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FOLLOWING:
1) interacting with a hostile fan, clearly they should be ignored or tossed out depending on their degree of hostility and how they are expressing it.
2) getting in a long drawn out conversation that would distract you from your halftime duties.
3) The guy is looking for an arguement.
AGAIN, those situations are not what I am asking about.

I am saying, why walk around with a chip on your shoulder, prejudging all fans as the enemy. If you sense the guy has genuine question, and was just seeking to understand something, and you can teach him a principle of the game with a 10 second conversatino.. why not be a teacher for a moment instead of a policeman.

Would that not fit nicely in the role of a quality official.

[Man In Blue]

My point all along has been judgement. It's been ponted often with all of the things going on you only hear part of what is said. Sometimes we only see part of what happens. It is oviously easier to call the game from the stands or the keyboard.

Also you only quoted part of my post. I said there are times when it is called immediately either a T or toss the player.

We are hired and paid for our judgement. We can only call what we see and hear and are 100% sure of.

Don't take the judgement out of the officials hands.

[Man In Blue]

Originally posted by rotationslim
Going to get roasted here.. but I will throw it out anyway.

If at halftime a rational, calm fan approaches you and asks a simple question, respectfully, why not choose to be an amassador for the game and answer.

NOW I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FOLLOWING:
1) interacting with a hostile fan, clearly they should be ignored or tossed out depending on their degree of hostility and how they are expressing it.
2) getting in a long drawn out conversation that would distract you from your halftime duties.
3) The guy is looking for an arguement.
AGAIN, those situations are not what I am asking about.

I am saying, why walk around with a chip on your shoulder, prejudging all fans as the enemy. If you sense the guy has genuine question, and was just seeking to understand something, and you can teach him a principle of the game with a 10 second conversatino.. why not be a teacher for a moment instead of a policeman.

Would that not fit nicely in the role of a quality official.

My experence is that it always starts friendly, but gets ugly very fast. Not as much at half time but after the game. I'm paid to work the game not make friends or give a rules clinic.

[JCrow]

so if you heard a player
say that loudly to an injured player or in her direction you would do_________


Me? I'd run! She sounds pretty damn scary! Plus, my wife is always watching those Lifetime Movies where the husband gets (shot, burnt, crushed, knifed, exploded or eaten by acid) in the Final Scene.

[bellnier]

Firstly...this was not a subtle situation where any bias on my part could color the incident worse than it was...the player had been warned earlier about threats of bodily harm and then later screamed---no stage whispers---her profanities loud enough so that the injured girl sprawled under the far basket could hear her (as did the entire gym).

Secondly...my conversation with the ref was friendly and away from the gym (in the school hallway). Our city Varsity teams use a fairly small number of refs, and we get to know them pretty well (especially if we don't abuse them too much...). Of course, they rarely respond to any fan during the course of a game, but some will give a non-confrontational parent or fan a few seconds of conversation outside the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rotationslim
Going to get roasted here.. but I will throw it out anyway.

If at halftime a rational, calm fan approaches you and asks a simple question, respectfully, why not choose to be an amassador for the game and answer.

NOW I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FOLLOWING:
1) interacting with a hostile fan, clearly they should be ignored or tossed out depending on their degree of hostility and how they are expressing it.
2) getting in a long drawn out conversation that would distract you from your halftime duties.
3) The guy is looking for an arguement.
AGAIN, those situations are not what I am asking about.

I am saying, why walk around with a chip on your shoulder, prejudging all fans as the enemy. If you sense the guy has genuine question, and was just seeking to understand something, and you can teach him a principle of the game with a 10 second conversatino.. why not be a teacher for a moment instead of a policeman.

Would that not fit nicely in the role of a quality official.

I might answer a question, but I am not going to stop and have a conversation with the fan. If that fan does not mind walking with me on the way to the locker room or out of the gym, then that might be OK. I am just not going to stop everything to talk to a fan. It is not my obligation to do so. I will only do answer any question of the fan is acting properly or the question is reasonable. It would also depend on the environment as well.

Peace

[bgtg19]

Originally posted by deecee
he meant they were "Sitting" as in their location relative to the bench not physically sitting.

Gee, you think? I happen to agree with you, deecee. You can't take what bellnier says as "literally" true.

I doubt that the player literally "threatened" bellnier's daughter's teammate with "physical harm." Most officials would not treat a genuine, literal threat like that with just a warning.

I doubt that the player "screamed at the top of her lungs." Maybe the player said something loud enough for people to hear.

I doubt that the player said what she is alleged to have said "not more than 10 feet from both refs"; in a two-person game, the T and L are not usually so close to each other. Perhaps it happened after the two officials got together while the coach attended to the injured player.... Oh, but that couldn't be the case because the injured girl was "under the far basket."

I doubt that neither of the refs "responded with any kind of action" if what bellnier says is true; I don't care how steely-nerved you are, a girl screaming at the top of her lungs less than 10 feet away is going to at least cause you to look at her to see what's up.

I doubt that "the player screamed so loudly that the entire gym went dead-silent." Really? Even the girl who was crying in pain fell "dead-silent" upon hearing the scream? I don't doubt that the gym was quiet and that a player's comment could be heard clearly; usually, a gym will go quiet when a player goes down with an injury. I think it is far more likely that the gym went quiet for a reason other than this girl's alleged scream.

I doubt that bellnier would be able to recognize "any bias on my part [which] could color the incident worse than it was." Our own biases are hard to detect.

I agree with those who have posted in this thread who opine that if -- and that's a big if -- the events unfolded exactly as described, those events warranted a response from the officials. I remain skeptical about this particular situation because it has been embellished.

I've said plenty enough and mean nobody any ill will. I'm just hoping that when we post plays for which we'd like to receive an opinion, we post those plays as they are and not as we think they need to be for us to get our opinion confirmed.

[OldCoachNewRef]

That the girl has Torretts sysndrome? Just a thought.

[bellnier]

Wrong, wrong and more wrong. You weren't there, you don't know me.
1. To quote the ref "...she said she was going to punch your player in the head..." Isn't that a threat of bodily harm?
2. The girl screamed about as loud as she could, enough to quiet the entire gym.
3. The injured girl was lay under the basket for more than five minutes. The refs were sitting on two chairs between the players benches while the coaches were attending her. The end of each bench was fairly close to those seats, and the player in question was 10 feet from the refs.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bellnier
Wrong, wrong and more wrong. You weren't there, you don't know me.
1. To quote the ref "...she said she was going to punch your player in the head..." Isn't that a threat of bodily harm?
2. The girl screamed about as loud as she could, enough to quiet the entire gym.
3. The injured girl was lay under the basket for more than five minutes. The refs were sitting on two chairs between the players benches while the coaches were attending her. The end of each bench was fairly close to those seats, and the player in question was 10 feet from the refs.

You asked for opinions. None of us were there. We do not know how loud or what the official's heard. I would not be surprised if the officials did not hear the comments. You just assume that they heard the girl say those things and you wanted to know why the officials did not eject the player or give the T. It is also possible that the officials were not very experienced and did not know what to do. Either way we are only hearing just your side of this story. We are also only hearing your interpretation which might be very different if we talked to other people at the game. If you do not like the opinions, why did you ask the question in the first place?

Peace

[bellnier]

I value all your opinions...where did I say that I didn't? What has little value, however, is the attack by bgtg19...he wasn't at the game and knows nothing about my objectivity. My original intent was not to ipugn the integrity of the referees---I was just curious as to how other refs would handle the situation as I described it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bellnier
I value all your opinions...where did I say that I didn't? What has little value, however, is the attack by bgtg19...he wasn't at the game and knows nothing about my objectivity. My original intent was not to ipugn the integrity of the referees---I was just curious as to how other refs would handle the situation as I described it.

Do not put words in my mouth. I only said that if you ask for opinions you will get all kinds of points of view. That means that people are not going to buy your view of the story as well. I am not saying that you were even lying or you do not believe what took place. I am just saying the officials might have had another point of view and made a judgment based on what they saw and heard. You cannot get upset when people give their opinion and see things a different way. Things are not always black and white. That is being expressed by a few people that answered to your questions.

Peace