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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 10:44am
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hooper:
I think you're overestimating the coaching influence (though I hope I'm wrong!) and underestimating how impactful the immediate consequence of a foul can be. Refs really to have the ability to change the course of a game!
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That is c**p Refs are not their to change the course of a game. I come into a game ready to call what I see. I call what i see from the first tip to the final whistle. It is the coaches job to adjust. If a ref adjusts then we are not playing basketball because the ref is now adjusting the rules, this my friend is not the job of a ref. PLAYERS AND COACHES DETERMINE THE COURSE OF A GAME.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 01:08pm
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I come here as a coach to tell everyone that I absolutely control the game and how it's played by my girls. They respond directly to my influence, how I respond to them and the officials and the manner in which I give directions. I have never had an official "control" the game. The coaches control the game. If I pump up my girls to play aggressively they will play aggressively. If I pump up my 4th graders they will foul more. My 8th grade AAU select team has a better understanding of what MY definition of aggressive is and how to accomplish it out on the court. Do they know what they can get away with and what they can't? Usually. I have also taught them to be aware of what is being called early in the game.

The way the players respond on the court and how they play is the direct responsibility of the coach. I'm not being some suck up coach here either, trying to get on the good side of the officials. I know the limitations and the abilities of each of my players. I know who fouls based on lack of talent and skill and who fouls because they were just being stupid that moment. My 8th graders don't "reach", my 4th graders reach constantly, always and do it even when I tell them to play defense by moving their body, not using their hands. My 8th graders don't reach because they have learned the art of footwork and how to move, my 4th graders chase, a lot.

This is a sore point of mine. I am so tired of listening to other coaches and parents, even ones on my own team, harp about lack of calls, too many calls, etc. Last night I had to endure the calls of parents to "call it both ways" at least a hundred times. My girls just fouled yesterday. They fouled on offense and on defense. The other team did too. Both teams were hyper, aggressive and out of control. Both teams had fouls. I took out one of my players when she wouldn't stop acting like we were playing football. She was surprised. Did she foul on purpose? No, of course not, but she did realize what I wanted after I took her out and explained you can't hug the other team.

I'll get off my coaching soap box now. I small vent to be sure, but at least I had a captive audience! Now if I could only convince my parents that the little girl on the other team did not bite little Sally on purpose I will have achieved a miracle.

Thanks for listening to a coach.

Coach Gbert
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by coachgbert
I come here as a coach to tell everyone that I absolutely control the game and how it's played by my girls. They respond directly to my influence, how I respond to them and the officials and the manner in which I give directions. I have never had an official "control" the game. The coaches control the game. If I pump up my girls to play aggressively they will play aggressively. If I pump up my 4th graders they will foul more. My 8th grade AAU select team has a better understanding of what MY definition of aggressive is and how to accomplish it out on the court. Do they know what they can get away with and what they can't? Usually. I have also taught them to be aware of what is being called early in the game.

The way the players respond on the court and how they play is the direct responsibility of the coach. I'm not being some suck up coach here either, trying to get on the good side of the officials. I know the limitations and the abilities of each of my players. I know who fouls based on lack of talent and skill and who fouls because they were just being stupid that moment. My 8th graders don't "reach", my 4th graders reach constantly, always and do it even when I tell them to play defense by moving their body, not using their hands. My 8th graders don't reach because they have learned the art of footwork and how to move, my 4th graders chase, a lot.

This is a sore point of mine. I am so tired of listening to other coaches and parents, even ones on my own team, harp about lack of calls, too many calls, etc. Last night I had to endure the calls of parents to "call it both ways" at least a hundred times. My girls just fouled yesterday. They fouled on offense and on defense. The other team did too. Both teams were hyper, aggressive and out of control. Both teams had fouls. I took out one of my players when she wouldn't stop acting like we were playing football. She was surprised. Did she foul on purpose? No, of course not, but she did realize what I wanted after I took her out and explained you can't hug the other team.

I'll get off my coaching soap box now. I small vent to be sure, but at least I had a captive audience! Now if I could only convince my parents that the little girl on the other team did not bite little Sally on purpose I will have achieved a miracle.

Thanks for listening to a coach.

Coach Gbert
This kind of venting, we can handle!
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 01:35pm
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I'm often surprised by which topics generate the most responses. This is one such surprise.

If the coach had not mentioned his team was boys, I would have sworn he was talking about my 7th Grade Girls "travel" game last night. I wish I had been paid by the whistle. Even with a 10-point lead and seconds to go, the teams were pressing. And of course they were fouling. As others noted, they were not good enough. It's that simple. I had several parents (during the game) thank me for calling so many fouls (on their team.) I told them it would make no difference. It did not.

Coaches can complain all they want about the refs. We don't miss the layups. We don't only dribble to the right because we have no skills to dribble left. We don't form a scrum around the ball because we are not taught how to spread the court. I listened to coaches yelling for 32 minutes of stopped time "Don't foul" as the girls were reaching, grabbing, slapping, clutching and pushing.

And...when one team lost by 10 points, two parents came up to me to tell me it was the most biased officiating they had ever seen. Of course, it's the ref's fault. It couldn't possibly be anything else.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 01:41pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BayStateRef
And...when one team lost by 10 points, two parents came up to me to tell me it was the most biased officiating they had ever seen.
"Oh, so you weren't at my game last week?"
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 05:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by BayStateRef
And...when one team lost by 10 points, two parents came up to me to tell me it was the most biased officiating they had ever seen.
"Oh, so you weren't at my game last week?"
Oh, so it was YOU who didn't call the same things last week that I called this week according to the coach.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 07:48pm
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Don't you just want to:

As a ref in a game where neither team can play, foul after foul, turnover after turnover, all parents yelling like little children, when there daughter hacks or grabs and you call a foul, they yell" your being picky". When there daughter has a hand placed on her they yell, "get the hands off, thats a foul, don't you know the rules"! Just one time after their daughter misses a wide open lay up don't you just want to run over to them and yell back, "I guess thats my fault also".....just courious if any of you have thought about doing this!!
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 08:08pm
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Re: Don't you just want to:

Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
As a ref in a game where neither team can play, foul after foul, turnover after turnover, all parents yelling like little children, when there daughter hacks or grabs and you call a foul, they yell" your being picky". When there daughter has a hand placed on her they yell, "get the hands off, thats a foul, don't you know the rules"! Just one time after their daughter misses a wide open lay up don't you just want to run over to them and yell back, "I guess thats my fault also".....just courious if any of you have thought about doing this!!
No, I actually want to yell at them, "Grow up! Where do you think your daughter learns her bad habits, but from you?" But I never do.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 08:09pm
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Re: Don't you just want to:

Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
As a ref in a game where neither team can play, foul after foul, turnover after turnover, all parents yelling like little children, when there daughter hacks or grabs and you call a foul, they yell" your being picky". When there daughter has a hand placed on her they yell, "get the hands off, thats a foul, don't you know the rules"! Just one time after their daughter misses a wide open lay up don't you just want to run over to them and yell back, "I guess thats my fault also".....just courious if any of you have thought about doing this!!
Sure! And as soon as one of them posts here - I might!
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 17, 2006, 05:01pm
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If a coach is reasonable

Most referee's will listen to a coach who is reasonable. If both coaches felt like the game was out of hand, then it is possible that between periods the coaches could have approached the officials in a respectful manner and discussed the issue, stressing that both coaches were here and that they mutually agreed that the game should be called tighter for the safety of the participants.

I would certainly listen to a discussion like that and I hope that most reasonable referee's would as well.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 17, 2006, 05:34pm
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Re: If a coach is reasonable

Quote:
Originally posted by LepTalBldgs
Most referee's will listen to a coach who is reasonable. If both coaches felt like the game was out of hand, then it is possible that between periods the coaches could have approached the officials in a respectful manner and discussed the issue, stressing that both coaches were here and that they mutually agreed that the game should be called tighter for the safety of the participants.

I would certainly listen to a discussion like that and I hope that most reasonable referee's would as well.
I've got to believe that if both coaches agreed, they would simply ratchet back their players, not approach the officials. I've never seen a high school game where both coaches agree with each other that their players are getting mugged and the officials are doing nothing about it.

About the only place I can think of where such a situation you describe might possibly happen would be a very young age rec program where the official is a fill-in HS kid with little officiating experience and a reluctant whistle. And once again, if the coaches agree with each other, they have the power to ratchet back their kids under a mutual agreement to do so. Don't hold your breath on this one, however.
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