How to talk to a referee

[hooper]

Originally posted by rainmaker
hooper -- you've hit a nerve, obviously.

Here are some suggestions for the future. In one game I did, both coaches came to my partner and me together and said, "We're trying to help our kids learn to play with less contact. If you'd call it a little tighter, we'd appreciate it."

You can also talk to the assignor, as others have suggested.

The trick to getting what you want is to avoid certain tones of voice and certain phrases. If you say, "They're getting hurt" or "C'mon blow the whistle" or "this isn't football", the ref or assignor will just hit the mute switch, and you'll be talking to a brick wall. Also, there needs to be no suggestion that you're losing because of the refs. Furthermore, you have to avoid certain rule myths, such as "over the back" and "reaching in". Neither of these is agains tthe rules, and refs don't want to hear these kinds of ignorance from you.

What you can say, especially to an assignor, is "other refs in this league have been more strict with the contact, and we like that to be consistent." "Yea, we won, but we felt like our kids were learning bad plays." "I've been working iwth my kids on playing clean defense, and when they get lazy or sloppy, I want them called for it." This gives the message that you want more calls in both directions.

I can sympathize with your concern. And I agree that this can be a big issue at the 7th grade level. You have to approach it carefully in order to get consistency from game to game.

Thanks for these comments! These are very helpful! You've hit exactly on my concerns. These kids are still learning to play the game, and I rely on the officials to teach them what's legal and what's not during a game. Likewise, I rely on the officials to keep the game safe.

I like the idea of getting with the opposing coach and both of us talking with the offical during half-time or a time-out.

One of the struggles many coaches have from game to game is that no-calls in one game are fouls in the next and vice versa. I've had kids come out and ask me, "How come that's a "foul, violation, etc." now? I did that last time and it was OK." (I usually try to explain as best I can - this is always a foul, it just wasn't called last time, or what you did last time was a little different than what you did this time - but sometimes I just have to say "This ref is going to call a "foul, violation, etc." when you do X, so don't do it." This frustrates them tremendously, but sometimes that's the best explanation I can give.)

But that's not really at issue here, the question is safety in this instance and I appreciate your comments.

[Edited by hooper on Jan 15th, 2006 at 08:09 PM]

[tomegun]

Although I'm sure (at least I hope) other officials looking at this thread have thought the same, I would like to thank the officials who have basically stated the fact that the officials do not adjust to the players' flow. That is hogwash and shouldn't even be said. I can tell you right now that from 7:30pm to approximately 9:30pm tomorrow, a illegal screen will be called as such, a push will be called a push and so forth. It doesn't matter what kind of flow the teams want to have, I'm going to to what I'm getting paid to do and what I'm being evaluated for. Oh, the floor is an old floor but if it is slick, too bad so sad.

[mplagrow]

I know it's probably already been said to death, but I'll throw in my two cents. I had an 8th grade girls game last week. Bonus by the end of the first quarter--both teams. All the girls kept fouling until halftime. After the half, the girls from both teams came out with their hands back and played clean ball.

So what was the difference in the second half? Is it that we called the game differently? No, it's because the coaches told them to back off. That's their job.

I will say this, though. The coaches won't tell the players to back off if they aren't afraid of their players getting into foul trouble.

Grade school kids don't get it. You call a foul on them, they'll do the same thing again and again. But the coaches are (usually) smart enough to tell them to back off if they are afraid of foul trouble.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mplagrow
I will say this, though. The coaches won't tell the players to back off if they aren't afraid of their players getting into foul trouble.

Not always true. If a crew 20+ fouls in a half (JH usually plays less than 16 minute halves) it is not the official's responsibility. I have been involved in games and watched games were the officials do nothing but call fouls and nothing changes. But for some reason you see the coaches saying to the officials, "you are letting this game get out of control." All we have say in is how many fouls we call; we do not control the safety of the players when we call the fouls.

Peace

[hooper]

Originally posted by mplagrow
I know it's probably already been said to death, but I'll throw in my two cents. I had an 8th grade girls game last week. Bonus by the end of the first quarter--both teams. All the girls kept fouling until halftime. After the half, the girls from both teams came out with their hands back and played clean ball.

So what was the difference in the second half? Is it that we called the game differently? No, it's because the coaches told them to back off. That's their job.

I will say this, though. The coaches won't tell the players to back off if they aren't afraid of their players getting into foul trouble.

Grade school kids don't get it. You call a foul on them, they'll do the same thing again and again. But the coaches are (usually) smart enough to tell them to back off if they are afraid of foul trouble.

Wow. As a coach, I disagree.

I think you're underestimating the impact that a foul will have on a player. It's sudden. It's clear. And there's an immediate consequence. A coach talking to a kid 10 minutes later might have some impact, but half the time the kid won't even remember the incident that the coach is talking about. (Teenagers tend to forget things....)

I think you're overestimating the coaching influence (though I hope I'm wrong!) and underestimating how impactful the immediate consequence of a foul can be. Refs really to have the ability to change the course of a game!

[VaCoach]

My experience has taught me that a "basketball game" has to be being played before officials can officiate a basketbal game. My point is this, when 10 players are out of control, they can't dribble, they cant pass, they can't shoot, defense is played by hacking at one another, bellying up to an offensive player when he stops his dribble, holding on to jerseys on throw ins,,etc etc...

Then the coaches and parents want to blame the refs for the game getting out of control. You can't ref a basketball game if one is not being played!!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by hooper


Wow. As a coach, I disagree.

I think you're underestimating the impact that a foul will have on a player. It's sudden. It's clear. And there's an immediate consequence. A coach talking to a kid 10 minutes later might have some impact, but half the time the kid won't even remember the incident that the coach is talking about. (Teenagers tend to forget things....)

I think you're overestimating the coaching influence (though I hope I'm wrong!) and underestimating how impactful the immediate consequence of a foul can be. Refs really to have the ability to change the course of a game!

I think you are overestimating the power of officials. You deal with the players on a daily basis. We see the players sometimes only one time a season. You control their playing time directly. We have to call fouls and until they are disqualified from the game in order for them to sit down. I agree that we affect the game, but you coach them to make the proper decision that could result in fouls. I have had coaches get upset with me because their player tried to dribble between defenders standing in the paint and there was no foul. We do not just call fouls because someone hits the floor or falls down. We call fouls when the rules have been violated and there is some advantage by someone. Basketball is a contact sport, and the rules say that contact can be severe and there should be no foul called. If you do not want players to be hurt, tell them to make good decisions with the ball. Tell the little guard to not go in hard against a much bigger player. I have seen screens set by big players and the screener did nothing but stand there (which by rule would be absolutely not a foul but coaches like you have called for one). It is your job as a coach to teach your players to call out screens and decide the philosophies that fit your players and the team you are playing. I also officiate bigger kids than 7th grade and the older they get the more chances for bigger bodies to fall will go up greatly. Coach either you do not understand the rules or you do not understand officiating. There is only so much we can ever do to keep the players safe.

Peace

[hooper]

JRutledge,

You're a little prickly, aren't you? We'll just agree to disagree.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by hooper
JRutledge,

You're a little prickly, aren't you? We'll just agree to disagree.

No, I just think your point of view is very educated on this topic.

Look, I spent most of my Sunday talking about making officials better and drove two hours each way to do it. Those conversations were important, this is just gravy.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by hooper
Thanks for these comments! These are very helpful! You've hit exactly on my concerns. These kids are still learning to play the game, and I rely on the officials to teach them what's legal and what's not during a game.

I've had kids come out and ask me, "How come that's a "foul, violation, etc." now? I did that last time and it was OK." (I usually try to explain as best I can - this is always a foul, it just wasn't called last time, or what you did last time was a little different than what you did this time - but sometimes I just have to say "This ref is going to call a "foul, violation, etc." when you do X, so don't do it." This frustrates them tremendously, but sometimes that's the best explanation I can give.)

"This ref is going to call it this way, so don't do it" IS without a doubt the best explanation, and it's a great learning opportunity for your players. I did a girls varsity game last year where I was really in a little over my head. I was used to JV and called a pretty tight game, especially in the first quarter. The coaches were both just going nuts, which I couldn't understand at all. But one team came out in the second half, and quit fouling. The other team didn't. Guess which team won? And which team had by far the better record both that season and also over several years? The team with the coach who taught her players to adjust to the refs (they ended up being second in the state last year). So you're up there with the quality coaches when you use this explanation to your players, and they'll be up with the top players when they learn how to make that adjustment.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by VaCoach
My experience has taught me that a "basketball game" has to be being played before officials can officiate a basketbal game. My point is this, when 10 players are out of control, they can't dribble, they cant pass, they can't shoot, defense is played by hacking at one another, bellying up to an offensive player when he stops his dribble, holding on to jerseys on throw ins,,etc etc...

Then the coaches and parents want to blame the refs for the game getting out of control. You can't ref a basketball game if one is not being played!!

My experience is exactly the same as your experience. Good points imo.

I've officiated games like that, and I've also had to suffer through the same comments as Hooper was throwing out. Usually not for long though. It's 7th. grade basketball; the skills simply aren't there yet.

[dave30]

Totally agree with the last couple of comments. There has to be some semblance of basketball being played before we can call it the right way. I've had some games that turned into the ugliest, fouling, clutching and grabbing I've ever seen. Those are usually the games where the PARENTS are up in the stands yelling at the refs and the other team.

Give me those SAME kids in a game where parents act civilized and you will have a cleaner, nicer game even if the skills aren't quite there yet.

I guarantee you when parents get too involved thinking they are getting cheated and the coach starts whining, these kids feed into it. I've had kids apologize for their parents before and hug me on the way out of the gym !

Also, "a foul is a foul"....just isn't true...it is a situational thing.....

[JRutledge]

The game I had on Saturday was not a very well played game by both teams. The visiting team players would complain every single time there was a call. Every time my partners called something I had a kid in my face or making a comment. I even had a kid follow me around the court after my partners called something that I actually did not completely see. Funny thing the coach of the visiting team was complaining a lot too. Every time something was called he was in the ear of me or one of the other officials. Then he did not like the fact that I called an illegal screen on his player that set a football style block (most of the screens were like that, I picked the worst one ). Then we came to the other end and the home team's set a screen while moving, but the defender ran around the screen and no contact and no displacement took place. I did not call anything and the coach went nuts. I T'd up the coach from the Lead position as I was table side. This took place in at the end of the first half after we had called more than 20 fouls in the first half.

The second half starts and we called just as many fouls on both sides and not one person complained the rest of the game. At least they did not complain outwardly as they had during the first half. Funny when the coach decides to do something, the players follow.

Peace

[lmeadski]

the degree to which a player plays rough is inverse to his skill level. What else can a player do with a limited skill set than to play tough? I think everyone on this thread is understanding of how this all comes together: the player's skill level, the coach's ability to coach and maneuver his/her team through a game, and how we call the game, are 3 key elements to how the game unfolds. One impacts the other, which impacts the other, etc. It is a big circle. And, being a circle, you can claim that one of these 3 is more important than they other as it relates to the game. In reality, that depends where you jump in on the circle.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by hooper

Wow. As a coach, I disagree.

I think you're underestimating the impact that a foul will have on a player. It's sudden. It's clear. And there's an immediate consequence. A coach talking to a kid 10 minutes later might have some impact, but half the time the kid won't even remember the incident that the coach is talking about. (Teenagers tend to forget things....)

Maybe if you sat the kid on the bench for a half instead of lecturing him for 10 minutes you could have a clear, sudden impact on your player's performance.