Coaching Box Issue??

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Really wish I had insisted on putting something down for a box before my last game. Freshmen boys - figured I could just wing it.

Well, home coach thinks he's entitled to use the ENTIRE bench (chairs stretching from the endline up to the scorer's table), I look over and realize he's standing, basically even with the lower block of the FT lane. I motion him back and tell him he can't be down that far.

Few plays later, I notice him there again - give him another point back to where the coaching box should be.

Ball goes OOB, home team gets the throw in their backcourt (1st half still), and the coach wanted to talk to one of his players. Instead of having the player come to the edge of the court, he comes on to the court. I go over, give him the stop sign, and tell him that he cannot come onto the court. I then pointed out his last player on the bench and told him he could go that far (even though it was probably too big of a box) and that this was his last warning.

Of course, later in the game, he's way down at the end of the bench, so I assessed the technical. Only problem - I reported it for "being out of the coaching box" only to get everyone giving me the look of "What the bruce are you talking about? There isn't a coaching box."

Why didn’t you issue the coach a technical after your first warning?

Did you do a coach's pre-game conference that includes the emphasis of a coaching box?

If you did not, then isn’t one warning sufficient?

No optional coaching box after all and will the next officiating crew has to give 3 warnings before issuing a technical for the head coach violating the sit rule?

[IAABO_Ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

We have to have a FT lane to play the game. We don't have to have a coaching box. We will survive.

I knew I’d find a taker.

What gives you the right to say on line means less then the other?

Isn’t it our job as officials to insure that both teams have an equal chance to win by the rules ALL the rules?

Per the rule book the coaching box markings are worded the same way as any other rule about court markings.

As to the importance of the coaching box rule, I’ve yet to see an official issue a coach a “T” direct or indirect and say, “It’s only the coaching box he can stand anyway it makes no difference.”

I’ll take this one step more. Have ten people sitting down and have one of them yell something. Then have one person stand and yell. You can pickup the person standing much easier.

So yes you can get by. But you as the referee are not doing your job, you’re giving the home team an advantage by allowing them to say whether the visiting coach CAN DO HIS/HER JOB to the best of his/her ability. Something they have no right to do BY THE RULES.

The problem would be very easy to fix. The first home game have the officials walk out onto the floor and say, “Mr/Ms AD (home team management) we need to have the coaches boxes put down tonight before we start.” The referee may very well get some guff. The next set of officials walk in and the referee goes over and says the same thing. The referee may get some more guff but not as much as the first. Third set same thing. But I’ll bet you by the fourth or fifth time the officials will not need to say anything because the home team will have them down.



[Edited by IAABO_Ref on Jan 3rd, 2006 at 09:11 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref

I knew I’d find a taker.

What gives you the right to say on line means less then the other?

Isn’t it our job as officials to insure that both teams have an equal chance to win by the rules ALL the rules?

Per the rule book the coaching box markings are worded the same way as any other rule about court markings.

As to the importance of the coaching box rule, I’ve yet to see an official issue a coach a “T” direct or indirect and say, “It’s only the coaching box he can stand anyway it makes no difference.”

I’ll take this one step more. Have ten people sitting down and have one of them yell something. Then have one person stand and yell. You can pickup the person standing much easier.

So yes you can get by. But you as the referee are not doing your job, you’re giving the home team an advantage by allowing them to say whether the visiting coach CAN DO HIS/HER JOB to the best of his/her ability. Something they have no right to do BY THE RULES.

The problem would be very easy to fix. The first home game have the officials walk out onto the floor and say, “Mr/Ms AD (home team management) we need to have the coaches boxes put down tonight before we start.” The referee may very well get some guff. The next set of officials walk in and the referee goes over and says the same thing. The referee may get some more guff but not as much as the first. Third set same thing. But I’ll bet you by the fourth or fifth time the officials will not need to say anything because the home team will have them down. [Edited by IAABO_Ref on Jan 3rd, 2006 at 09:11 PM]

IAABO_Ref,
Well, so much for the game management philosophy lesson, of which I do not disagree [except for the "not doing your job" part].
Could you post the IAABO Rule of an unmarked line, or is that an unwritten extension of that same philosophy?
Thanks.
mick

[dblref]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

Bristol VA. Opposite ends of the state. It's good to see that at least the rule is consistant throughout Virginia.


No, it isn't. I am in northern VA and the point of allowing 1 coach to have a box and not the other coach was not discussed in the clinic I attended.

[IAABO_Ref]

It’s not an IAABO rule, but the NFHS rule I quoted above. The coaching box lines must be on the floor and it’s the referee’s job to make sure they are. So according to the rule book if the referee allows the game to be played without a coaching box they are not doing their job.

Here we wait for the lines to be put down. When the 12X12 X rule went from shall from should. We’d wait for one to be put down before the game would start. We came out and did it as a board every time and after the fourth home game of the year we didn’t have to say it too often because the schools knew it needed to be done.

Game management look at it this way, if the AD get upset he’s in the corner of the gym for 32 minutes and you are 100% backed by the rules. Now you tell the coach they can’t do something they have been allowed to do 13 games prior, something they have the right to do according to the rules. They are going to be upset on the sideline for 32 minutes and they are going to be 100% entitled to be that way.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
It’s not an IAABO rule, but the NFHS rule I quoted above. The coaching box lines must be on the floor and it’s the referee’s job to make sure they are. So according to the rule book if the referee allows the game to be played without a coaching box they are not doing their job.

Here we wait for the lines to be put down. When the 12X12 X rule went from shall from should. We’d wait for one to be put down before the game would start. We came out and did it as a board every time and after the fourth home game of the year we didn’t have to say it too often because the schools knew it needed to be done.

Game management look at it this way, if the AD get upset he’s in the corner of the gym for 32 minutes and you are 100% backed by the rules. Now you tell the coach they can’t do something they have been allowed to do 13 games prior, something they have the right to do according to the rules. They are going to be upset on the sideline for 32 minutes and they are going to be 100% entitled to be that way.

Virginia is not doing that. No box, home coach sits and visiting coach can rome from the 28' line to the end of the bench.

[IAABO_Ref]

Does VA use NFHS rules? If so I’d like to know how they can tell you to do that based on the rules.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
Does VA use NFHS rules? If so I’d like to know how they can tell you to do that based on the rules.

Yes we use NFHS rules, but as I stated in an earlier post, we are not responsible for puting the coaches box on the floor. The home team (AD) is. We were told this by VHSL.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by IREFU2

Yes we use NFHS rules, but as I stated in an earlier post, we are not responsible for puting the coaches box on the floor. The home team (AD) is. We were told this by VHSL.

This is correct. I called the VHSL yesterday, thats what they told me. I believe that the NFHS needs to be more specific and much tougher on schools who fail to comply with the RULE that stats coaching boxes must be outlined, possibly an indirect T to the coach.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref

I knew I’d find a taker.

What gives you the right to say on line means less then the other?

I have just as much right to say we can play without a coaching box as you have to say that one has to be there. IOW, I have the exact same rights that you have.

Hypothetically, let's suppose we don't have any tape.
If there's no coaching box, are we going to play? Yes.
If there's no FT lane, are we going to play? Of course not.
That's why it's obvious to anyone with a brain that FT lines are a more important issue than a coaching box.

The use of the coaching box is a STATE ASSOCIATION CONTROLLED issue. My state says that if there's no box, coaches sit. Virginia says that if there's no box, the visiting coach can stand. Neither state requires that the referee make the home team put a box down.

So you do what your state says to do and I'll do what mine says to. But don't try to bull$hit us that the coaching box is just as important as the FT lane lines

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I have just as much right to say we can play without a coaching box as you have to say that one has to be there. IOW, I have the exact same rights that you have.

Hypothetically, let's suppose we don't have any tape.
If there's no coaching box, are we going to play? Yes.
If there's no FT lane, are we going to play? Of course not.
That's why it's obvious to anyone with a brain that FT lines are a more important issue than a coaching box.

The use of the coaching box is a STATE ASSOCIATION CONTROLLED issue. My state says that if there's no box, coaches sit. Virginia says that if there's no box, the visiting coach can stand. Neither state requires that the referee make the home team put a box down.

So you do what your state says to do and I'll do what mine says to. But don't try to bull$hit us that the coaching box is just as important as the FT lane lines

I agree. Do what your state says do and let other state do what is told by their governing bodies.

[IAABO_Ref]

I’m not saying that VAHL isn’t telling officials that. My question is more of why?

The VAHL wants officials to not enforce or flat out overlook six rules to avoid one.

You are right as officials we don’t put tape on the floor and it is the home team’s responsibility to do so. They don’t have an option whether or not they want to do so.

It sounds to me like they are making the situation ten times worse then if they just went by the book.

[IAABO_Ref]

Originally posted by IREFU2

I agree. Do what your state says do and let other state do what is told by their governing bodies.

The coaching box SIZE is STATE ASSOCIATION CONTROLLED. Clearly if a school has no tape you are going to play. But with a coaching box, coach you've got three chairs.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
Does VA use NFHS rules? If so I’d like to know how they can tell you to do that based on the rules.

Same way MA tells its officials to use a shot clock. Same way Vermont tells its officials that the kids have to wear mouthguards. Same way MN tells its officials to play 2 18-minute halves. Need I go on?

[IAABO_Ref]

The shot clock, mouth guards are in addition to.

The 18 minute half is used every game and both teams are equally effected the rule. Now lets say the rule said 18 minute half is used only if the home team doesn’t do something, otherwise we’ll use 8 minute quarters.