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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 30, 2005, 01:23pm
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last night's game

team A shooting second free throw; I am lead; Team B player in lane space nearest to me does an obvious fake to try and draw team A player into lane, it works somewhat but I ignore it as Team A shooter makes the shot and away we go. I eventually had a break where I told the Team B player to knock it off.

How would you have handled it, both by the rules as violation or tech and informally? something more I should have done?

if Team A had missed, how should I have handled it? can I just call violation for the fake and let Team A shoot again?


thanks

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 30, 2005, 01:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by blewthat
last night's game
This morning's answer.

Quote:
Originally posted by blewthat
an obvious fake to try and draw team A player into lane, it works somewhat
So we have an obvious fake that worked. Seems pretty easy at this point: delayed FT violation.

Quote:
Originally posted by blewthat
but I ignore it as Team A shooter makes the shot and away we go
You ignored it? How did you do that? Did you say to yourself, "Whew, I'm glad that went in because otherwise I'd have to deal with something?" Maybe you decided that if the shot missed, you would have stuck out your fist with a horinzontal arm.

Either way, from my above conclusion, signal the violation and deal with it properly. Since the attempt went it, leave your whistle alone. Had it missed, blow the play dead and puke on B1's shoes.

Quote:
Originally posted by blewthat
I eventually had a break where I told the Team B player to knock it off.
From what I can tell, this is the part you did correctly. Talking to a player to prevent a future violation/foul is always good: it is called preventative officiating. Just remember to treat each team and coach the same; and not in just that game, but from game to game and season to season.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 31, 2005, 01:08am
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Quote:
Originally posted by blewthat
last night's game

team A shooting second free throw; I am lead; Team B player in lane space nearest to me does an obvious fake to try and draw team A player into lane, it works somewhat but I ignore it as Team A shooter makes the shot and away we go. I eventually had a break where I told the Team B player to knock it off.

How would you have handled it, both by the rules as violation or tech and informally? something more I should have done?

if Team A had missed, how should I have handled it? can I just call violation for the fake and let Team A shoot again?


thanks

What do you mean "it worked somewhat?" Did B cause A to violate? If the succeeding violation by A was obvious then you may be in sticky situation.

However, if you choose to ignore both the B fake and the resulting A violation then you have to ignore it regardless of whether the ball goes in or not. If you do not then you are giving Team A a reward they do not deserve. If both violate as a result of the fake then you need to cancel the shot and then award a substitute throw.

If you are just ignoring the B fake (and there was no A violation) then you have acted correctly as JR has stated.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 31, 2005, 04:02am
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Quote:
Originally posted by wwcfoa43
Quote:
Originally posted by blewthat
last night's game

team A shooting second free throw; I am lead; Team B player in lane space nearest to me does an obvious fake to try and draw team A player into lane, it works somewhat but I ignore it as Team A shooter makes the shot and away we go. I eventually had a break where I told the Team B player to knock it off.

How would you have handled it, both by the rules as violation or tech and informally? something more I should have done?

if Team A had missed, how should I have handled it? can I just call violation for the fake and let Team A shoot again?
What do you mean "it worked somewhat?" Did B cause A to violate? If the succeeding violation by A was obvious then you may be in sticky situation.

However, if you choose to ignore both the B fake and the resulting A violation then you have to ignore it regardless of whether the ball goes in or not. If you do not then you are giving Team A a reward they do not deserve. If both violate as a result of the fake then you need to cancel the shot and then award a substitute throw.

Call it that way, 43, and you'd be the one in a "sticky situation"- LOL . You're completely wrong- twice- when the free throw is good and when it doesn't go in.

Rule9-1PENALTIES4(d)- "If there is violation first by the free thrower's opponent followed by the free thrower or a teammate... if a fake by an opponent causes the free thrower or a teammate of the free thrower to violate, only the fake is penalized".

Case book play 9.1.6 SITUATION A(a):
While A1 is attempting a final free throw, B1 enters the lane too soon followed by A2, both of whom are in marked lane spaces.
RULING. In (a), if the try is successful, the goal shall count and the violation shall be ignored. If the try is unsuccessful, the ball shall remain dead when the free throw ends and a substitute free throw is awarded.

Iow, Blewthat didn't blow that.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 31, 2005, 06:21am
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The only thing blewthat did incorrectly was fail to signal a delayed FT violation. That was only because he was unsure about the rules which JR cited.

Once he reads that post, he will learn them and know how to deal with this situation in the future.
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Old Sat Dec 31, 2005, 10:19am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Once he reads that post, he will learn them and know how to deal with this situation in the future.
Wow, Nevada, where did you get your crystal ball? Doesn't it get kinda heavy carrying that thing up and down the floor fast break after fast break?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 31, 2005, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by wwcfoa43
What do you mean "it worked somewhat?" Did B cause A to violate? If the succeeding violation by A was obvious then you may be in sticky situation.

However, if you choose to ignore both the B fake and the resulting A violation then you have to ignore it regardless of whether the ball goes in or not. If you do not then you are giving Team A a reward they do not deserve. If both violate as a result of the fake then you need to cancel the shot and then award a substitute throw.
Call it that way, 43, and you'd be the one in a "sticky situation"- LOL . You're completely wrong- twice- when the free throw is good and when it doesn't go in.

Rule9-1PENALTIES4(d)- "If there is violation first by the free thrower's opponent followed by the free thrower or a teammate... if a fake by an opponent causes the free thrower or a teammate of the free thrower to violate, only the fake is penalized".

Case book play 9.1.6 SITUATION A(a):
While A1 is attempting a final free throw, B1 enters the lane too soon followed by A2, both of whom are in marked lane spaces.
RULING. In (a), if the try is successful, the goal shall count and the violation shall be ignored. If the try is unsuccessful, the ball shall remain dead when the free throw ends and a substitute free throw is awarded.

Iow, Blewthat didn't blow that.
[/B]
Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I should have "held my whistle" on this one since I did not have my rules and cases straight.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 31, 2005, 12:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by wwcfoa43
[/B]
Looks like I should have "held my whistle" on this one since I did not have my rules and cases straight.
[/B][/QUOTE]Been there- done that!
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 31, 2005, 01:50pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Once he reads that post, he will learn them and know how to deal with this situation in the future.
Wow, Nevada, where did you get your crystal ball? Doesn't it get kinda heavy carrying that thing up and down the floor fast break after fast break?
You did understand that I was not referring to my own post, but rather JR's which immediately preceded mine, right?

Now here's where I could say something crass about dragging large balls up and down the court...

Actually, there wasn't any use of the mystical arts involved at all. Blewthat simply informed us in a post from an earlier thread that he is a young referee who has been working youth girls games. He is obviously lacking experience, but reading this forum and learning. Putting the pieces together from there seems rather straightforward to me.

He asked, he got a reply with solid rules citations, he will read and learn.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 02, 2006, 09:24pm
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thanks for the replies, I was mostly too lazy to check my rulebook because I seemed to remember that this would be an unsportsmanlike tech, could not quite remember, thanks for clarifying, I thought it would seem a bit harsh; also always looking for little tricks that you guys use in different situations; just a clarification, I am a varsity ref, not a beginning ref, maybe my posts come across as someone who hasn't a clue, apologize for that
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 04, 2006, 03:17pm
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My assigner/rules interpreter told me to deal with the first violation not the second (i.e. they wont cancel each other) unless they occur simultaneously. It has worked for me the last 5 years without any question from players or coaches.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 04, 2006, 05:38pm
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I think a lot of players never dreamed that somewhere a group of people got together to discuss and establish rules needed during situations such as free throws and throw ins. They are shocked to hear terms such as
'disconcerting.'
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