Need Clarification on IABBO Ref school question

[dpk933]

I am a first year official working towards the board. I have been using this site for a few weeks now and have learned a tremendous amount from all of the postings.

I am using the IABBO Ref SChool package and the following question confused me. Any help would be appreciated.

A-6 replaces A-1. Before the clock starts team B is assessed a technical foul. Coach of Team A sends A-1 to the table to attempt free throws. Official beckons A-1 into the game. Is the official correct?

MY answer is yes. Rule 8 Sect 3 says that any player of offended team can shoot. Ref School says no. Rule 3 Sect 3 art 4 - player replaced shall not reenter until clock has started.

Am I missing something???????

[oc]

A-1 has subbed out and can not sub in until the clock starts and stops. Although any one normally can sub in and shoot the T free throws, since A-1 can not legally sub back in yet A-1 can't.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by dpk933
I am a first year official working towards the board. I have been using this site for a few weeks now and have learned a tremendous amount from all of the postings.

I am using the IABBO Ref SChool package and the following question confused me. Any help would be appreciated.

A-6 replaces A-1. Before the clock starts team B is assessed a technical foul. Coach of Team A sends A-1 to the table to attempt free throws. Official beckons A-1 into the game. Is the official correct?

MY answer is yes. Rule 8 Sect 3 says that any player of offended team can shoot. Ref School says no. Rule 3 Sect 3 art 4 - player replaced shall not reenter until clock has started.

Am I missing something???????

While I agree with oc's post above, I just wonder if NFHS R8-S3 trumps the rule that does not allow A1 to return to the game. I ask this question because years ago before the NFHS and NCAA clarified the rule concerning who could shoot the free throws for pre-game technical fouls, I was asked specifically by a young official if a Coach A could change his starting lineup after the ten minute mark so as to have A6 shoot the free throws without being penalized for changing his starting lineup.

I told the official that Coach A could have A6 shoot the free throws without being penalized for the lineup change. But later that week I called NFHS Headquarters, when it was still in Kansas City, KS, and talked to Dick Schindler who agreed with my interpretation. He told me that a team's right to have anybody shoot the free throws trumps, so to speak, the rule against changing the starting lineup. Therefore, why couldn't A1 return to shoot the free throws.

Just some food for thought.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark Dexter]

I would say that the "can't return" rule (3-3-4) takes precedent over the "anyone can shoot" rule (8-3).

The fact that there is a specific exception for pre-game FT's would indicate to me that there is no exception for other cases. In addition, the pre-game exception doesn't let A1 (who has subbed out) go back into the game.

I'll take a look later today and see if there are any case plays.

[Nevadaref]

I happen to agree with Dexter, although MTD's comment is interesting. There isn't much in the case book on this.
The following are from the Simplified and Illustrated book:


8-3 The pregame dunk in (1) dictates the game will begin with the administration of the free throws. In (2), No. 11 who was not designated to start, legally enters to attempt one or both of the free throws. The replaced starter may not return until after the clock has run following the last free throw.

8-3 The free throws awarded for a technical foul may be attempted by any player, including an incoming substitute. The coach or captain shall designate the free thrower. Since an individual technical foul results in two free throws, each free throw may be attempted by a different player. If a technical foul occurs before the game starts, a substitute(s) may take the place of a designated starter to attempt the free throws.


The part in bold bars the original starter from attempting even the second technical foul FT. Therefore, I think that there is a good case that players who are substituted out have to wait.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 29th, 2005 at 10:02 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I would say that the "can't return" rule (3-3-4) takes precedent over the "anyone can shoot" rule (8-3).

The fact that there is a specific exception for pre-game FT's would indicate to me that there is no exception for other cases. In addition, the pre-game exception doesn't let A1 (who has subbed out) go back into the game.

I'll take a look later today and see if there are any case plays.

I don't think you need a case play. The rule (8-3) says "any *eligible* substitute." A player who has left is not an eligible substitute.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

The part in bold bars the original starter from attempting even the second technical foul FT. Therefore, I think that there is a good case that players who are substituted out have to wait.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 29th, 2005 at 10:02 AM]

Now the question is - how often do you actually catch this?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I don't think you need a case play. The rule (8-3) says "any *eligible* substitute." A player who has left is not an eligible substitute.

Good call.

Thanks for doing my research for me, Bob!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I don't think you need a case play. The rule (8-3) says "any *eligible* substitute." A player who has left is not an eligible substitute.

Bob:

I am going to play Devil's Advocate here and ask you to define eligible? Does eligible mean a player who had not been disqualified from further participation in the game?

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Bob:

I am going to play Devil's Advocate here and ask you to define eligible? Does eligible mean a player who had not been disqualified from further participation in the game?

MTD, Sr.

It includes that, of course, but it also includes team members who meet the requirements in 3-3.