Foul, or Legal?

[wwcfoa43]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Therefore, my advice for ruling on these contact situations is to strive to be fair to both players involved and not to give preference to the player with the ball just because they do have the ball. Whether you call fouls on the player who initates the contact or not is up to you, but having firmness in your convictions on these situations, which is of paramount importance, will allow you to apply a consistent standard and be seen as a quality official.

I think you need to be a little careful here on what you consider "fair" to both players. I agree that both players have equal right to a spot on the floor, etc. However, whether the player has the ball or not makes a HUGE difference in assessing the advantage or disadvantage that comes from the contact. For example: moving a player's arm slightly can cause a player who has the ball to miss while having no impact on a player without the ball.

This is why in many cases a foul is not called on a player who is successfully screened and who may cause some contact on the screener. The goal of the screener was to screen the defender and so when they are successful there may very likely be some contact which is the "fault" of the defender. The same amount of contact if it occurred on a ball carrier would constitute a foul.

So while all players need to be treated equally you have to look at what their goals and what advantage/disadvantage is caused by the contact. The player with the ball will have decidedly different goals and the A/D will be different with the same contact.

[just another ref]

Picture the 7'guy guarding the 5'4" guy. The big guy leans over the little guy with arms extended to the point that when the little guy looks straight up he sees the big guy's elbows. The little guy, fortunately for him, has a 48" vertical leap. He leaps straight up to shoot, and his arm smacks into the 7' guy's arm. Would you call this a player control foul? I don't think so.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by wwcfoa43
[/B]

However, whether the player has the ball or not makes a HUGE difference in assessing the advantage or disadvantage that comes from the contact.

So while all players need to be treated equally you have to look at what their goals and what advantage/disadvantage is caused by the contact. The player with the ball will have decidedly different goals and the A/D will be different with the same contact. [/B][/QUOTE]Am I missing something here?

In one breath you're saying that the player with the ball should get the advantage if contact is made. In the next breath, you're saying treat players equally.

Why should the player with the ball have contact called using different criteria than the defender?

Sotry, podner, the rules don't work that way.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by just another ref
Picture the 7'guy guarding the 5'4" guy. The big guy leans over the little guy with arms extended to the point that when the little guy looks straight up he sees the big guy's elbows. The little guy, fortunately for him, has a 48" vertical leap. He leaps straight up to shoot, and his arm smacks into the 7' guy's arm. Would you call this a player control foul? I don't think so.

Consider the same situation, but diring a rebound -- teh 5'4" guy blocking out the 7' guy. The 7' guy reaches over the 5'4" guy and grabs for the ball. Just as the ball reaches the 7' guy's hands, the 5'4" guy goes straight up and contacts the 7' guy's hands. The ball bounces away.

Absent any contact, the 7' guy would have had the rebound. Absent the "reaching over" the 5'4" guy would have had a rebound. (iow, there's a definite disadvantage cause by the contact) Who is the foul on?

[just another ref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Consider the same situation, but diring a rebound -- teh 5'4" guy blocking out the 7' guy. The 7' guy reaches over the 5'4" guy and grabs for the ball. Just as the ball reaches the 7' guy's hands, the 5'4" guy goes straight up and contacts the 7' guy's hands. The ball bounces away.

Absent any contact, the 7' guy would have had the rebound. Absent the "reaching over" the 5'4" guy would have had a rebound. (iow, there's a definite disadvantage cause by the contact) Who is the foul on?

My answer is the same as when I read the first post on this thread: I'd have to see it. We can debate plays like this on paper for days, (and we do) but an infinite number of basketball situations (like this one) cannot be done justice by a written description.