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Wed Dec 29, 1999, 09:32pm
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Should 4th through 6th graders, have the same rules and regulations? It seems to me they would not understand some of the calls.
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Thu Dec 30, 1999, 09:33am
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After officiating for several years in the "elementary leagues". I believe that for the younger kids you have to be less enforceful(?) and be "very" patient with your explinations! The older the kids, 5th and 6th grade the more you enforce. After all this years 6th graders are next years 7th graders. I have been around a few 7th and 8th grade coaches and they are not known for teaching the rules of the game along with the skills. So we as refs need to be sure the up and comers are aware and have learned the rules so when they "achieve" 7th grade they are at least aware!
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Thu Dec 30, 1999, 04:17pm
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quote: Finally a topic with which I'm familiar - at least enough to have a strong opinion. As a grade school coach for a number of years, I would make one request to officials calling the game at this level: call the game. I've had a number of refs who think they're helping by letting a lot of things - particularly travelling - go uncalled. This makes it really hard for the kids to learn the game properly. It's equally common at this level to see a LOT of illegal contact go uncalled. This not only makes learning difficult, it can make the game overly dangerous. I have had to let one or two refs know that I am willing to forfeit a game if I feel it is unsafe. The only difference I like to see in grade school officiating is refs who take the time to explain the calls to the players. All too often, the kids aren't sure what they did wrong. Of course we work on all these things in practice, but the kids learn more quickly in game situations. (Keep in mind, grade school teams usually have a lot less practice time than older kids. Those who have the most to learn - the youngest players - have the least time to learn it.) Finally, one more request to anyone who would officiate grade school games: Don't coach. Every now and then, we get a well-intentioned ref who wants to make little suggestions about players' free throw mechanics, defensive stance, or whatever. I assure you, this never helps. These kids are absorbing a lot of new stuff at once, and it's hard to filter out the advice. They're already getting plenty of advice (some good, some not-so-good) from their parents - usually shouted from the stands. (Of course the most frequent bit of parent advice: SHOOT!) Many younger leagues have "special" league rules as it is: closer free throw lines, limited press, limited running clock.... Personally, I would prefer no special rules, but I do get a little cranky with officials who neglect to read the league rules. I guess this is common sense, but you'd be surprised how often it occurs. [This message has been edited by JoeT (edited January 02, 2000).]
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Thu Dec 30, 1999, 07:01pm
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Among other things, I am on the board of my local rec league and we start players (boys and girls) at 3rd grade. I've been training refs to do these levels for over 10 years, so I may be able to add to this discussion with some experience.
We teach officials who do games at the 3rd and 4th grade level to use a lot of descretion when making violation calls, but not to hold back on contact fouls. Our philosophy on violations at this level is to let it go under the following three criteria: 1) there was no advantage gained by the violation 2) it didn't happen so obviously that everyone in the gym will moan and 3) the kid isn't doing the same thing wrong consistently. When a kid really violates or commits a foul, we feel it is best to call it, then explain it if need be. By calling it, the kid is more likely to remember not to do it again. We used to use this same philosophy for 5th and 6th graders, but in recent years we have started to call the games just the same as in upper grades. This is because the parents and coaches want it that way, and because the players have (overall) become much better in the past few years. We have always called 7th and 8th the same as high school. We do have special rules for the lower grades, for example: no backcourt or zones in 3rd and 4th with free throws shot two feet inside the regular line, plus nine foot rims and running clock. 5th and 6th just went to straight high school this year. Hope some of this helps.
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Sun Jan 02, 2000, 12:58am
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Sunshine,
The game of Basketball is not going to change much in the next ten years but the 4th and 6th grade players will. The coach's are more likely to be teaching "fundamentals" and i believe refereeing the fundamentals is what everyone wants. It's also a great opportunity for us officials to create a trusting relationship with the coach's and player's. ------------------ Don
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Sun Jan 02, 2000, 08:08pm
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quote: With due respect to a much more experienced official, I disagree. At this point, you are into a very grey area where you're trying to decide if a player "really" violates or just "sort of" violates. I have coached games where I think the refs were trying to apply this type of principle, and it can be very exasperating. The most evident problem is the travelling call. When a ref calls some travels but not others (and it is obvious he is doing it to be "nice" or give the kids leeway), it makes it harder for the kids to learn what travelling is and how not to do it. Personally, I think it's easier on everyone if the ref just makes the calls. Just one person's opinion....
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Sun Jan 02, 2000, 09:15pm
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I think coaches need to educate the kids more on establishing a legal guarding position and dribbling techniques. Not only do officials not do the kids favors by not calling things, they do not do themselves favors. I wish there could be something for the parents too.
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Tue Jan 04, 2000, 12:47pm
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I think Mark's comments are what most officials, at that level, are trying to do. It would be great if we could just officiate the game, but at the 3 - 6 grade level you end up doing a lot of coaching. I don't mean calling plays or telling players how to dribble, shoot, or other basketball skills that will develop over time. Let me give you an example recently I worked a 4th grade girls game. Several of the girls got so excited when they got the ball they took off running and then the light went off and the dribble started. My partner & I talked to the girls during the whole game and by the 4th quarter they were doing better. If we had called traveling everytime it occured, I'd still be on the court trying to finish that game or most players would never get to stay in the game because they traveled everytime they got the ball. Both coaches thanked us for being patient with both teams. Final score 6 to 4. And nobody really cared. The kids had fun and learned a little.
I realize there is a thin line between coaching and officiating. How many times do we tell players to get out of the lane? That is coaching to a degree. Or we tell a player "spot throw-in", why not just give the ball to the player and call the vioations when they occur. Officials are usually the only ones in the gym who really know whats going on on the floor even to the attitudes of the players and we try to prevent things from happening before they explode or we have a game like Mark described in an earlier post where nothing was going right. Most coaches on lower levels let the officials call the game as they see it as long as it is fair on both ends of the court. My favorite comment to a coach at that level is "do you really want me to call the game the way they are playing it". Once a coach said yes and we did. But at the half he said he was sorry for the comment and for us to call the game the way "we" saw it. Second half smooth sailing. Long winded way of saying every game is different, every level is different and we officials have to adjust to every game accordingly. Later. Jerry
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Tue Jan 04, 2000, 07:57pm
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quote: Again, I politely disagree. I have coached (girls) at those levels, and I would prefer you call all the travelling. The style of officiating you suggest seems only to take the game at hand into account. It is very difficult to teach when the officiating is entirely different from game to game. What will that player learn by getting a no call when she'll get the call in the next game? Yes, the kids are learning, but they will learn more quickly if the officiating is consistent. As to the comment quoted above, I take mild offense. The officials have no history with the players on the floor (in most cases). The coaches are working with them over the course of months or years. I will grant (and have granted) that many coaches could stand a rules review, but there are definitely things in the coaching world that most refs don't encounter or know anything about. Skills development - especially in younger players - is difficult business. I assure you that good coaches do "know what's going on on the floor" at a much deeper level than the refs could possibly know (at least as it applies to that coach's own players.) I know my players pretty well, and I know their attitudes and reactions on the floor. [This message has been edited by JoeT (edited January 04, 2000).]
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Tue Jan 11, 2000, 01:11am
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"I would prefer you call all the travelling" (A quote from Joe T)
I agree, but unfortunately we don't have 6 hours to play a 3rd or 4th grade game. Use discretion, call the obvious, have fun (because that's what it's all about anyway), and help the little kids have a great time. Just another opinion from an inexperienced referee (meaning I end up doing a lot of games in this age group).
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