Scorebook T - waste of paper?

[Blind & lovin' it]

Anybody else think the scorebook T's have gotten a bit out of hand? Not so much in the real game, as I NEVER see anything called - more so in the rules book, case book, tests, etc.

I'd guess the intent is to make sure there are no delays during the game for silly reasons - but comeon. Does anyone else think this could be greatly simplified?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
I'd guess the intent is to make sure there are no delays during the game for silly reasons - but comeon. Does anyone else think this could be greatly simplified?

My personal opinion is that the intent is to prevent any deception regarding which player is which. I guess I can see your point about having so many of these infractions. But what would you do to simplify it?

[Blind & lovin' it]

easy killer, yes-I meant administrative technicals (if we have to get all formal about it).

The way I see it refs are basically there to make sure the game is played fairly. Why should kid A1 playing kid B1 get spotted 2 points because of a clerical error? The paperwork should really have a lot less to do with the game.

I say this a little more as a player than a ref - but that's how I roll.

ok ... rip me something fierce - but lets try to use "heck" the next time, Mr 18. Tis the season.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it

The way I see it refs are basically there to make sure the game is played fairly. Why should kid A1 playing kid B1 get spotted 2 points because of a clerical error? The paperwork should really have a lot less to do with the game.

1) Because we don't get to make up our own rules.

2) Because we don't get to decide which or whether administrative rules should be called or not.

3) Because administrative rules aren't called by advantage/disadvantage.

4) Because you're sureashell not making sure that the game is being played fairly if you ignore administrative fouls by one team.

5) Because Team B made that clerical error-- not the official scorer or team A.

[Blind & lovin' it]

break through your thin candy shell man!

If everything is black and white - nothing can be discussed. Imho clerical errors are to the actual game on the basketball court as Rocky is to Differential Equations 395 - they have very little to to with each other.

If you want to say we should call everything black and white and not question it - then why say anything at all?

Why not make it a violation for clerical errors (admistrative technicals)? I already know its "because its not in the book" - but lets expand our minds just a bit. Someone had to make the rules - they weren't etched in tablets by a burning bush.

Is there anyone else in the world that thinks the administrative technicals, if enforced as written, are a bit harsh? if not, I'm on the the next topic...

for the record - I call per the rule book. But that doensn't mean I stop thinking.



[Edited by Blind & lovin' it on Dec 20th, 2005 at 04:30 PM]

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
break through your thin candy shell man!

If everything is black and white - nothing can be discussed. Imho clerical errors are to the actual game on the basketball court as Rocky is to Differential Equations 395 - they have very little to to with each other.

If you want to say we should call everything black and white and not question it - then why say anything at all?

Why not make it a violation for clerical errors (admistrative technicals)? I already know its "because its not in the book" - but lets expand our minds just a bit. Someone had to make the rules - they weren't etched in tablets by a burning bush.

Is there anyone else in the world that thinks the administrative technicals, if enforced as written, are a bit harsh? if not, I'm on the the next topic...

for the record - I call per the rule book. But that doensn't mean I stop thinking.



[Edited by Blind & lovin' it on Dec 20th, 2005 at 04:30 PM]

Hey, I'm the one with the thin candy shell.

The rules are there for a reason, and it's our job to enforce them. The tablets were etched in the apparent center of the universe, Indianapolis, IN, for both the National Federation and NCAA, and when they come down from the mountain it is our job to admire and adhere to those writings on the tablets.

Sure, we can discuss whether or not we like certain rules. But in this forum, as officials, we discuss the proper way of administering those rules as written. It may seem as though administrative issues don't have a role in the game itself, and perhaps on the playground they don't. But in a structured environment, the reason those rules are in place is to provide consistancy throughout the country. Also, I am certain at some point someone somewhere tried to gain an unfair advantage, so the rules committee(s) decided to include the administrative issues to close any possible unfair "loopholes".

That's what the burning bush told me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
break through your thin candy shell man!

If everything is black and white - nothing can be discussed. Imho clerical errors are to the actual game on the basketball court as Rocky is to Differential Equations 395 - they have very little to to with each other.

If you want to say we should call everything black and white and not question it - then why say anything at all?

Why not make it a violation for clerical errors (admistrative technicals)? I already know its "because its not in the book" - but lets expand our minds just a bit. Someone had to make the rules - they weren't etched in tablets by a burning bush.

Is there anyone else in the world that thinks the administrative technicals, if enforced as written, are a bit harsh? if not, I'm on the the next topic...

for the record - I call per the rule book. But that doensn't mean I stop thinking.

You really get upset when people disagree with you, don't you? That's not a very good trait for any official to have. You might understand what I'm saying a little bit better when you actually gain some real live officiating experience, and not just from your few IM games. Right now, you really don't have a clue as to what I'm trying to tell you. Hopefully, you might someday.

Let me suggest that if you're not going to accept any philosophies or ideas other than your own, then don't bother asking the damn question in the first place. You're not always gonna get the answers here that you want to get- I'll guarantee that.

Why is it always some of the first and second year guys that think that they know absolutely everything there is to know about officiating?

Try expanding your mind and think about that.

Lah me.

[Back In The Saddle]

Short answer: It's part of the job; deal with it.

Long answer: Like all the other seemingly pointless administrivia in this bureaucratic world we live in, the rules are there because somebody, somewhere wilfully disregarded the strictures of polite society in a cynical and selfish attempt to game the system. So rules were created and sufficient punishements attached to deter the next generation of imaginative hucksters from attempting the same dirty tricks. At times one would like the freedom to apply a measure of judgment and discretion. But alas, what appears to be a genuine clerical error, may in fact be a cleverly disguised attempt to cheat. How can we tell? If we employ the compassionate approach and simply fix the error without penalty, bad apples disposed to cut a corner now and then will take advantage of the rest of us. So we are in the unfortunate position of having to play the hardass, penalizing honest mistakes to discourage dishonest ones. The rules in this case actually give us an out. Rather than appearing to be heartless and capricious jerks, we can point to the rule book and rightfully claim the full backing of the NFHS in doing what in reality needs to be done. But even better than that, we can honestly express empathy for those penalized without feeling undue pressure to capitulate.

[Blind & lovin' it]

Thank you M&M and BackintheSaddle. I appreciate your well spoken and detailed responses.

Mr Jurassic, I have officiated for 5 years and while still very much a rookie, I have worked 187 games in 2005 not counting the soph boys I just finished tonight. While I have never worked a college game, I believe that is just a bit more than "a couple IM games" - though I do appreciate you reading my other posts. While 1st and 2nd year officials piss you off, I like working with them as most of them still care about the game and do not have the arrogance, beer belly, or arthritis which affect so many pre-cambrian individuals such as yourself.

I am getting sick of this topic, so I'll leave it at this. I will agree with all three of you in that the rules must be applied as they are written. However, I refuse to quit thinking and asking why - maybe some day I can climb the mountain in Indy and affect a couple on the tablet scratches.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
Thank you M&M and BackintheSaddle. I appreciate your well spoken and detailed responses.

Mr Jurassic, I have officiated for 5 years and while still very much a rookie, I have worked 187 games in 2005 not counting the soph boys I just finished tonight. While I have never worked a college game, I believe that is just a bit more than "a couple IM games" - though I do appreciate you reading my other posts. While 1st and 2nd year officials piss you off, I like working with them as most of them still care about the game and do not have the arrogance, beer belly, or arthritis which affect so many pre-cambrian individuals such as yourself.

I am getting sick of this topic, so I'll leave it at this. I will agree with all three of you in that the rules must be applied as they are written. However, I refuse to quit thinking and asking why - maybe some day I can climb the mountain in Indy and affect a couple on the tablet scratches.

Maybe someday you'll get a clue too. Never worked a college game yet, eh? Have you ever worked a high school varsity game? Other than a scrimmage?

Maybe sometime after you do your first high school varsity game- hopefully- if that day ever comes, you'll understand. With your attitude, you might have a helluva time getting to that point though.

Btw, you do have the arthritis part right.

[Blind & lovin' it]

[/B][/QUOTE]Maybe someday you'll get a clue too. Never worked a college game yet, eh? Have you ever worked a high school varsity game? Other than a scrimmage?

Maybe sometime after you do your first high school varsity game- hopefully- if that day ever comes, you'll understand. With your attitude, you might have a helluva time getting to that point though.

Btw, you do have the arthritis part right. [/B][/QUOTE]

1) I do not aspire to ref at the collegate level - I do it for fun, and a little exercise. My day job pays much better.

2) Yes

3) Yes

Don't worry about the attitude problem, old people love me! I can play a mean game of bridge and I enjoy listening about the time you met President Jefferson - you'd have me dating your grandaughter in no time!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it

Maybe someday you'll get a clue too. Never worked a college game yet, eh? Have you ever worked a high school varsity game? Other than a scrimmage?

Maybe sometime after you do your first high school varsity game- hopefully- if that day ever comes, you'll understand. With your attitude, you might have a helluva time getting to that point though.

Btw, you do have the arthritis part right. [/B][/QUOTE]

1) I do not aspire to ref at the collegate level - I do it for fun, and a little exercise. My day job pays much better.

2) Yes

3) Yes

Don't worry about the attitude problem, old people love me! I can play a mean game of bridge and I enjoy listening about the time you met President Jefferson - you'd have me dating your grandaughter in no time!

[/B][/QUOTE]Bullsh!t. You're just another big-mouthed know-it-all blowhard rookie inflating his resume. You've already said in another thread that you've spent your last 2 years doing a some middle school/jv stuff. Got news for you, sonny. You didn't learn enough about officiating in all those ms/jv games to fool the people here. You would be a helluva lot better off if you maybe tried to learn a l'il something in this forum instead of making your smart-azz/wise-azz comments.

Stick to your day job.

[Blind & lovin' it]

[/B][/QUOTE]Bullsh!t. You're just another big-mouthed know-it-all blowhard rookie inflating his resume. You've already said in another thread that you've spent your last 2 years doing a some middle school/jv stuff. Got news for you, sonny. You didn't learn enough about officiating in all those ms/jv games to fool the people here. You would be a helluva lot better off if you maybe tried to learn a l'il something in this forum instead of making your smart-azz/wise-azz comments.

Stick to your day job. [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I am normally described as rather reserved.

If you re-read that post (under the Attire topic) you will notice that I said I reffed for 3 years in college ... during the last 2 (of those 3) I reffed middle school and JV ball. That would be December 2002 when I graduated leaving a full 3 years to work plenty of other games. Now I took the winter of 2003 off while I was taking a couple masters courses. I have indeed worked high school ball. Though I must say the grand total of school games in the last two years only around 25. (more in scrimmages, summer tourneys) I do not believe I would lie in this forum sir.

[IAABO_Ref]

"T" him up or let it go..............

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
Why not make it a violation for clerical errors (admistrative technicals)?

You seem to have a confused idea about this issue. It has nothing to do with "clerical errors." It has to do with the coach failing to do his/her job poperly.

1- Coach fails to supply a roster, with the correct names and numbers of each team member, to the scorer prior to the 10 minute mark.

2- Coach fails to designate 5 starters or indicates an incorrect starter.

3- Coach fails to realize he has two players with the same number.

Those aren't "clerical errors."