The R disqualifies the wrong player.

[iref4him]

Two Fridays ago, I am the U in 2 man crew at a high school varisty game. the game is a rivalry ad close. Towards the end of the game. White 22 and 33 go for a rebound with Red 3 at Red's basket. The is a scuffle and all three go to the floor for the loose ball. The R calls a jamp ball and I step in to keep the players from scuffling any more than necessary. White 22 tries to get up and falls backward onto the floor, because someone pulled him off the pile. The R blows his whistle and points to Red #1 for grabbing White #22 by the neck and pulling him offthe pile. I din't see Red #1 do anything since he was standing next to me. But the player that pulled White #22 off the pile was his own teammate which I saw clearly. I went to the R and asked him what Red #1 did becuase I thought he did something else. H explained to me what he did and that he was throwing Red #1 out of the game for fighting. I told him I saw what happened and Red #1 was not near White #22. He wouldn't listen. I pulled him aside tried to talk to him.. He refused to listen and/or change his mind. I had to tell the Red coach that Red #1 his best player is disqualified and in our state he is out for the next game also. The Red coach lost it on me. He preceded to tell me what I already knew. I said I talked to the R but he is refusing to listen. He said I knew that red #1 had nothing to do with Whtie #22. I told him he was right and that I have talked to the R. I said the R is adamant and rihgt, wrong, or indifferent Red #1 is diaqualified and he has to have him replaced in 30 sec. I asked both assistant coaches for Red to take care of head coach and try to settle him down. He is not helping the situation by going nuts. They helped me and we got out of the game. After the game, the R and I talked, he said he knew what he saw. But I told him what I saw and that even the White coach could not figure out why we he threw Red #1 out of the game. Anyway... any thoughts, suggestions, etc.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by iref4him
I pulled him aside tried to talk to him.. He refused to listen and/or change his mind. I had to tell the Red coach that Red #1 his best player is disqualified and in our state he is out for the next game also. The Red coach lost it on me. He preceded to tell me what I already knew. I said I talked to the R but he is refusing to listen. He said I knew that red #1 had nothing to do with Whtie #22. I told him he was right and that I have talked to the R. I said the R is adamant and rihgt, wrong, or indifferent Red #1 is diaqualified and he has to have him replaced in 30 sec.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The R was wrong.

You were just as wrong in your comments to the coach. You basically stuck a knife in your partner's back. Never, ever tell a coach that he is right and your partner is wrong. EVER!

You need to keep any conversation with the coach short and sweet. You tell the coach that your partner made the call and it's over. Then walk away. Your job is to support your partner, not undermine him. You've already told your partner what you saw. If he chooses to ignore you, then that's his choice and problem- right or wrong.

[jbduke]

Somehow I think the coach for red will make the tape available for your stubborn partner to look at, after your association's administrative board has looked at it.

[Edited by jbduke on Dec 19th, 2005 at 07:28 PM]

[TravelinMan]

Another reason for 3 man. Perhaps R would have listened if both U1/U2 disagreed STRONGLY. In any event, someone needs to speak to this person about his intransigent nature. It could become a real problem, if it hasn't already.

[iref4him]

i understand the fact i sold my partner down the drain. but when you have a coach who knows you, both of us are in the FCA and interact with each other. The issue comes down to integrity. Never say NEver (or Ever) and Never say Always.

But when you are asked for the truth, you either lie or ignore the truth. I stuck with my partner's decision. I told the coach the truth about my partner's decision - right, wrong, or indifferent.

I have heard many coaches (high school, college, and professional level) who have told me that officials do not have integrity to admit to their mistakes or tell the truth about a screw up.

By the way, the next day...the assigner asked me what happened. I told him and he said the other official said that Red #1 had head-butted White #22. Tell me who has integrity??? The assigner said that I was able to diffuse the situation..by telling the truth...

I have heard the saying be right but not dead right. Dead right is lying to the coach to save your partner.. I hope you would agree that the head coach had every right to be upset and for a good reason/justification. The wrong player was thrown out. It's time to tell the truth take the heat and calm him down.. I thought I did what was right.

Something to discuss for pre-game!!! Truce.

Stay Faithful and Finish Strong

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by iref4him
I have heard the saying be right but not dead right. Dead right is lying to the coach to save your partner.. I hope you would agree that the head coach had every right to be upset and for a good reason/justification. The wrong player was thrown out. It's time to tell the truth take the heat and calm him down.. I thought I did what was right.

You don't have to lie to the coach to avoid selling your partner down the river. You can say, "Coach, that was the call, we've got to just move on." Even the next day, at your FCA meeting, you can say, "C'mon Fred, you know I can't discuss this. You can report it to Mr. Assignor, and I'll tell what I saw, and then we'll just have to get past it, okay?"

Then you tell the assignor what you saw, and let the "justice" come from that angle. It's not your job to keep everyone straight about the capital-T truth.

[Nevadaref]

Why didn't you just have your partner go over to the Red Coach and inform him of the DQ and also let him tell the coach himself what he saw while he was over there?

Once your partner didn't want your help with the situation you should have stayed totally out of it. It became his mess to deal with. I would have walked to the division line opposite the table.

[jbduke]

Nevada,

I find your recommendation interesting. The reason I wouldn't follow it is because were I in the situation, I would think that if my headstrong partner went to explain the situation to the coach, the coach would probably end up getting dumped. Your position might be that this is only his fault, but that doesn't change the fact that the game has now totally gone to hell. I think that part of our job is to keep this from happening, no matter how badly things are going and no matter who is responsible for the problems. Sure, the partner will get his down the road, but in the short run, we still have to get through this game.

[ref18]

One thing to live by

"Referees not always right...but NEVER wrong"

Always support your partner's calls even if you don't agree with them.

If we don't stick out for eachother than we're working alone out there.

[ronny mulkey]

JB,

What exactly are you advocating? How can you explain to the coach what your partner saw better than your partner did? As Nevada stated, stay the hell out of it. I really don't like someone else trying to explain my "phuckups". No doubt in my mind that the explanation would be a lot better coming from me. He saw what he saw.

Mulk

[JRutledge]

Maybe it is arrogant to say this , it is not your responsibility to explain something you did not see or did not agree with. If your partner threw out the kid, that is his job. All you can do is talk to him and direct him in the right direction. You cannot explain something to a coach. All you have to say to the coach, "I did not see why he ejected your player." You are not lying. You are acknowledging that you did not see the entire play and it was not your call. A smart coach is going to understand that you did not see what prompted the call. All you can do is help out your partner, after that you are not responsible for what he might do. I know when I make a call that is not understood or seen by my partner, I have no problem explaining myself.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by iref4him
But when you are asked for the truth, you either lie or ignore the truth. I stuck with my partner's decision. I told the coach the truth about my partner's decision - right, wrong, or indifferent.

I believe you have fallen prey to a false dichotomy. You seem to indicate that you believed you had two choices: lie or sell your partner out. This is simply untrue. There are better ways to handle this situation. And given your screen name, I'm going to use a rather unorthodox (at least for this setting) example.

Think about the New Testament story of the woman taken in adultery. This woman obviously made a bad judgement call. The Pharisees, like the coach, observed this bad call and very vocally took up the issue with Jesus, the impartial arbiter with whom they had an adversarial relationship. Trying to work this official, they posed a very direct question, to which there was no good direct answer, fully intending to use his answer to their advantage. But our wiley veteran was wiser than to get sucked into that trap. His immediate answer was not to answer at all. That's not a bad strategy; if no good can come of having a conversation, then don't have it. When pressed further, he defused the situation in a way that neither condemned nor condoned the one who blew the call, and that, though they did not get their way, the coaches were able to live with. That, my friend, is game management.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by iref4him


I hope you would agree that the head coach had every right to be upset and for a good reason/justification. The wrong player was thrown out. It's time to tell the truth take the heat and calm him down.. I thought I did what was right.

Of course, the coach had every right to be upset. You just told him in very plain language that your partner completely screwed up the call. What surprises me completely is that your partner didn't have to eject that coach after your actions. Talk about throwing gasoline on a fire.......

Please don't talk about "integrity". You showed a complete lack of that quality on that particular play imo. If you want to give your opinion to your partner, fine. If you then want to give your opinion to your assignor, that's fine too. Giving your opinion to the coach is just dead wrong, even though it seems that you'll never agree with that.

[JCrow]

That's the FIRST Biblical Anology that I've seen on this Forum! Never thought of it before but there's a close relationship between the Bible and Basketball.

Do you think that the 10 Commandments and the 10 Rules of Basketball are just a coincidence? Could the Rules have been divinely inspired as well?

I can only imagine God working on his First Draft of the Rules up in heaven.....

"THREE SECONDS IN THE LANE...YOU ARE TURNED INTO A PILLAR OF SALT...Hmmmmm....TOO SEVERE....THE CHEERLEADERS WOULD BE CRYING.....I GOTTA BE GETTING SOFT...."

"THREE SECONDS IN THE LANE...YOU SHALL ENDURE 3 PLAGUES...Hmmmm....NUMBERS MATCH BUT TOO MESSY ON THE GYM FLOOR WITH THE GRASSHOPPERS...."

"THREE SECONDS IN THE LANE...40 YEARS IN THE DESSERT....LIKE IT BUT THE GAME IS ONLY 32 MINUTES....."

"THREE SECONDS IN THE LANE....YOU WILL BE COVERED WITH BOILS.....NOT BAD.....REAL PAINFUL...DAMN! IT'LL STAIN THE UNIFORMS!!!"

"JESUS! I NEED SOME HELP OVER HERE!"

"Dad! Just give the other Team the ball and forgive the Violation...."

"NOT BAD!"

[ditttoo]

Is there a tape of this situation anywhere to be found? Might be nice to see what really happened and to hear the backtracking somebody will eventually have to do.

Now, what about the kid who got tossed and is also sitting out the next game?