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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 08:28am
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In a game I worked Saturday, we started them off wrong somewhere in the second half. Team A scored on the first pocession. Team B was equally confused and was robustly defending.

When Team B inbounded the ball we noticed that they were heading the wrong way and we stopped the game and turned them around the right way.

Coach B argued that his Team should of been awarded 2 points on the first shot that Team A made in the wrong basket.

I said "No" and stuck to it. I was thinking it wasn't a Correctible Error because the ball was "Live" when we discovered it but in thinking about it......I'm not so sure?

I know when a kid goes the wrong way "by himself" he scores 2 for the other Team. But when you line them up wrong, that doesn't apply, right? What is the basis for the ruling?

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 08:53am
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Treat it as if both teams had gone the right way until you figured it out. Then just straighten 'em out. Case book play 5.2.1SitF.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 09:32am
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This rule used to be fairly clear. If the officials directed the teams to go the wrong direction, then the points were given to the Team that put the ball into the basket. 5.2.1 Sit F as JR cited.
Also, I would apply this to the start of a quarter other than the 1st if the official did the correct mechanic of indicating color and direction, but pointing the wrong way.

Now we know that if a single player gets confused and scores in the wrong goal the other team gets the points. 5.2.3

However, there is a new case book play which has the jumpers facing the wrong direction (officials mistake) but one of the players knowing that he should be going the other way and scoring in the opposite basket from which his jumper was facing right off the tip. The ruling is that his team gets the points. 5.2.1 Sit E

I don't like this last ruling. How are the officials supposed to know what the kid was thinking when he went and scored in that basket? Are we mindreaders?

It is this last case book play that makes me give pause and question to which team we should credit the basket in JCrow's play to begin the 3rd quarter. I'd have to say that when it is obvious that all of the players were attacking and defending the wrong goals AND the officials were not aware of this at the time, then the points should go to the team that was physically shooting the ball into that basket.

If both teams are attacking the wrong direction, but the officials are aware of it, a violation will probably be called soon (10 seconds, double dribble, backcourt, etc.)
But if someone scores, then stop the game, credit the points to the opponent, and continue play by pointing the scored upon team in the proper direction and awarding them an end line throw-in.


I wish that the NFHS would adopt the simple rule that if the period starts with a jump ball then the way the jumpers are facing is the way that team MUST score until the officials stop the game and straighten it out. If the period does not begin with a jump ball, but rather with a throw-in or FTs, then the points go to the team that should have been scoring in that basket.
This would be easy to remember and simple to apply.
Unfortunately, for me, the NFHS case book seems to indicate differently, and we have to decide when the players are confused and when they know that the should be doing something else.


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Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 11:15am
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5.2.1 SITUATION F: During the pregame practice period, the visiting team properly uses the east goal and the home team the west goal. The officials, by mistake, allow the jumpers to face the wrong direction to start the game. Several baskets are scored before it is recognized that both teams are throwing the ball into the opponent's basket.

RULING: All points scored count as if the teams had gone the right direction and scored in their own basket. Once the mistake is recognized, play shall continue with each team attempting to score in its own basket. (4-5-4)
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Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 12:30pm
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JCrow, you mean you're really a ref, and this is a real situation that you are asking about? As I was reading, I thought maybe my computer had cut out the last part of your post, and that I was missing something funny.

If the coach keeps arguing, you say, "Coach, it's nobody's fault and everybody's fault. We'd have done the same if it was your team that scored in the wrong basket." Then after the game, you go home and review your 2nd half mental procedure, and be sure you've got a note in there to check the direction before the ball gets into play.
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Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 12:49pm
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Nevada, you are duh man!

I'll vote for you.
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Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 01:16pm
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I think . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
This rule used to be fairly clear. If the officials directed the teams to go the wrong direction, then the points were given to the Team that put the ball into the basket. 5.2.1 Sit F as JR cited.
Also, I would apply this to the start of a quarter other than the 1st if the official did the correct mechanic of indicating color and direction, but pointing the wrong way.

Now we know that if a single player gets confused and scores in the wrong goal the other team gets the points. 5.2.3

However, there is a new case book play which has the jumpers facing the wrong direction (officials mistake) but one of the players knowing that he should be going the other way and scoring in the opposite basket from which his jumper was facing right off the tip. The ruling is that his team gets the points. 5.2.1 Sit E

I don't like this last ruling. How are the officials supposed to know what the kid was thinking when he went and scored in that basket? Are we mindreaders?

It is this last case book play that makes me give pause and question to which team we should credit the basket in JCrow's play to begin the 3rd quarter. I'd have to say that when it is obvious that all of the players were attacking and defending the wrong goals AND the officials were not aware of this at the time, then the points should go to the team that was physically shooting the ball into that basket.

If both teams are attacking the wrong direction, but the officials are aware of it, a violation will probably be called soon (10 seconds, double dribble, backcourt, etc.)
But if someone scores, then stop the game, credit the points to the opponent, and continue play by pointing the scored upon team in the proper direction and awarding them an end line throw-in.


I wish that the NFHS would adopt the simple rule that if the period starts with a jump ball then the way the jumpers are facing is the way that team MUST score until the officials stop the game and straighten it out. If the period does not begin with a jump ball, but rather with a throw-in or FTs, then the points go to the team that should have been scoring in that basket.
This would be easy to remember and simple to apply.
Unfortunately, for me, the NFHS case book seems to indicate differently, and we have to decide when the players are confused and when they know that the should be doing something else.


5.2.1(E) is an instance of the more general case, 5.2.1(F). If 5.2.1(E) did not exist, and the officials became aware of their mistake at the dead ball after the game's first basket, their actions would be no different: score the basket for the shooter and set everyone, including themselves, straight.

The purpose of 5.2.1(E) appears to be to emphasize that the 'going wrong way from the get-go' scenario is not the same as the 'gets confused and scores in the wrong basket in the middle of the game' scenario.



[Edited by assignmentmaker on Dec 19th, 2005 at 02:48 PM]
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 01:51pm
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Rainmaker,

I'm not a real Ref. I did go to Ref School a dozen years ago and pass the IABBO Exam (by the skin of my teeth). The first year, I bought a shirt and sewed on the badge and paid my Union Dues.

However, do to the demands of my janitorial job...I'm limited to unpaid, volunteer work at our Local YMCA where I've helped officiate and Coach on a highly unpaid basis for the last 10 years. (I've out-grown the shirt.)

Our games our Equal-Time, non-Varsity Level Competitions. Great for the average kid looking to have fun. We stop the Game every 4 minutes for subs which drives me quite crazy......forcing me to write insane stories on the Forum.

Fortunately, the unpaid fathers & mothers that Coach are EXPERTS in all phases of basketball. Including a keen knowledge of all NFHS Rules. And, of course, if their kid is playing, the game takes on the importance of an NCAA Final Four.

The Coach that was chewing me out on this call Saturday was down like 27-12 at the time....and he was 100% sure that I was jobbing him.

I do appreciate the people on the Forum as I've learned alot here!

John
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Old Mon Dec 19, 2005, 01:57pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCrow
However, do to the demands of my janitorial job...I'm limited to unpaid, volunteer work at our Local YMCA where I've helped officiate and Coach on a highly unpaid basis for the last 10 years. (I've out-grown the shirt.)

Our games our Equal-Time, non-Varsity Level Competitions. Great for the average kid looking to have fun. We stop the Game every 4 minutes for subs which drives me quite crazy......forcing me to write insane stories on the Forum.
I nominate you for Mensch of the Week!

Seriously, it's good to know there are a few people like this out there in the real world. Fighting in the trenches for us "ivory tower" types. Keep up the good work!
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