Lower Level Games

[Chess Ref]

I appreciate everyones feedback on dealing with the coaches. So thank you for your time and suggestions. It gave me hope that someday I too may have this mysterious set of skills. LOL

Now,I need everybody to remember back to the day when they did the lower levels. I do all lower level games, frosh/jv. . The type of games where I get to work on advantage/Disadvantage ALL game long. The game where the point guards best move is putting her off-hand in front of the ball while she is dribbling to protect it. It is not always pretty but I make the effort and do want to do a good job.

Example.
1. Girl may have dragged her foot a wee bit. I judge no advantage.
2. Coach is now pleading "thats travelling". She is correct.
3. Then the defender may have gotten a little carried away with a handcheck.Player plays through. I judge no advantge gained. Other coach is now crying "Thats a foul," Coach is correct.

Now i have 2 coaches upset about the lack of calls. The game continues on . Do I have a pregame classroom session and explain some of the advantage/disadvantage theory or what. I want to let them play but I don't know what to say to these coaches about not calling everything that occurs cause I really do ned to get this game done by midnight or the Varsity refs are gonna be really p#$$#ed of at me. LOL

So any and all feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

[Nu1]

I think the best - albeit perhaps not the most helpful - advice is to use your judgement. From reading your post, I think you're doing the right thing. I ref a few 5th and 6th grade level games and I have a son who plays at that level. When I've had a coach complain, I've explained myself (quickly and in the course of the game), and that worked. If it doesn't, you may need to use the "T". I haven't used a T at this level, but I've seen it done and it was warranted.

For example, I just had a 6th grade girls game where Coach A is saying "3 seconds, 3 seconds..." My partner and I have already talked about it and are telling the young ladies (who don't have the ball) "get out, get out" whenever possible. Then A1 holds the ball for about 5 seconds in the lane and my partner calls 3 seconds. Coach A tells me we have to call that both ways. I replied, "Coach, we're looking both ways. Being lost in the lane and holding the ball while you're in there are two different things." By rule was the coach right? Yes, there were a ton of 3 second violations in the game. But at that level specifically, I'm using my judgement on calling it. (About 1 minute later I got a 3 seconds on B1 who was holding the ball in the lane. Last 3 seconds call of the game.) We didn't hear from Coach A any more.

On the other hand, PLEASE don't ignore violations / rules that clearly give one team an advantage. An example of this is when Team A (5th grade boys) fights there way back into the game after being down by about 10 in the second half. They tie the game with 3 seconds left. Team B inbounds...dribbles...horn...ball still in hand...shot...it goes and the ref (whom I know) counts it. Team A is devastated, most of players crying in disbelief. Everyone knew it shouldn't have counted. Ref says to me later, "Yeah, I know it wasn't good. But the junior high girls were waiting to practice."

[Ref in PA]

Originally posted by Chess Ref
I appreciate everyones feedback on dealing with the coaches. So thank you for your time and suggestions. It gave me hope that someday I too may have this mysterious set of skills. LOL

Now,I need everybody to remember back to the day when they did the lower levels. I do all lower level games, frosh/jv. . The type of games where I get to work on advantage/Disadvantage ALL game long. The game where the point guards best move is putting her off-hand in front of the ball while she is dribbling to protect it. It is not always pretty but I make the effort and do want to do a good job.

Example.
1. Girl may have dragged her foot a wee bit. I judge no advantage.
2. Coach is now pleading "thats travelling". She is correct.
3. Then the defender may have gotten a little carried away with a handcheck.Player plays through. I judge no advantge gained. Other coach is now crying "Thats a foul," Coach is correct.

Now i have 2 coaches upset about the lack of calls. The game continues on . Do I have a pregame classroom session and explain some of the advantage/disadvantage theory or what. I want to let them play but I don't know what to say to these coaches about not calling everything that occurs cause I really do ned to get this game done by midnight or the Varsity refs are gonna be really p#$$#ed of at me. LOL

So any and all feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

At the Frosh and JV level, I think you need to tighten up on some of the violations you would normally let go at the 5th and 6th grade level. These players are in high school, and should be reffed accordingly. In my opinion, the advantage/disadvantage philosophy deals more with contact between the offense and defense rather than with black and white rules violations.

Then you talk about the hand check. Obviously, we did not see the play. You say the player played through the contact therefore there was no advantage gained by the defense. Maybe, maybe not.

The handcheck slows the offensive player so the defender does not get "beat" on a play. Did the offensive player break off his/her drive because of the hand check? Many guards drive the lane to create offensive opportunities for their teammates, not necessarily to shoot an open lay up. Maybe the offensive player saw and opening but by the time he/she "plays through" that opening had closed. These are all things to consider. Maybe that innocent little hand check you let go was not quite so innocent and actually gave the defense a big advantage.

Sometimes the contact really did not affect anything, but it probably does more often than not.

[blindzebra]

I go into every game the same way, I'm going to call the obvious and with everything else I'm using advantage/disadvantage.

What changes is, that it takes less to disadvantage at these lower level games.

[zebraman]

ChessRef,

The questions that you are asking are the right ones. It shows that you are thinking critically about the calls you make and not just out there blindly blowing your whistle.

I rarely work a lower level game anymore, but last night my assignor called me to fill-in on a sophomore boys game. The skill level was very poor. My partner was very green and called an extremely tight game. It made for a long night. I had to call a little tighter than I like so that we weren't calling completely different games from each other. Not that big of a deal as we were consistent so both teams knew what to expect.

The coaches last night were whining a bit in the first quarter so as I ran past them I said, "we'll answer questions coaches, but please let us do the reffing." They seemed to understand that and backed off. There is a fine line between quick conversations with coaches and talking to them too much. You'll figure it out as you progress and you'll get better and better at handling the coaches.

The good news for you is that as you progess to higher levels, the talent level gets better and the coaches generally are better at letting us ref while they stick to coaching. Varsity games are the easiest to officiate. Keep it up.

Z

[ChrisSportsFan]

IMO, all lower level games would be best served having a running clock til the last 2 minutes of each half. Otherwise, some of these games take forever to play.

Keep in mind, some of these lower level coaches have already told those kids everything they can. If they gotta talk it's going to be to the refs. Communicate with them. Help talk them thru the game. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes it doesn't. If you're going to make it to the V level, you've gotta handle the F/JV coaches to get there. There are some really good people coaching at that level and they don't get any of the glory like having a full gym, name in the paper, etc. They also have to deal with parents who still don't understand the pecking order and want their kid to play more. Even though they couldn't throw the ball into the ocean with a wind to their back and no defense.

I pickup some of those games and I think that many of them were recently frustraited by officials who seemed to not care or were oblivious to the action on the floor. Once they see that you are not one of the "lazys", they can go back to coaching their team.

Don't call a bunch of game interupters that have no bearing on the outcome. Stick with advantage/disadvantage unless something is blatent.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by Chess Ref

3. Then the defender may have gotten a little carried away with a handcheck.Player plays through. I judge no advantge gained. Other coach is now crying "Thats a foul," Coach is correct.

3. Coach is not correct. If you judge no advantage then it's incidental contact, so say "Incidental contact, Coach," and move on.

[Junker]

I try to work all of my high school (v and non-v) pretty close to the same. I look at the non-varsity high school games as a place where players learn the game. If you are not enforcing the rules as you would in a varsity game, how can we expect them to understand how to play at that level. For example, last night I worked a Freshman g/b doubleheader. In both games we were shooting the double bonus early in the second quarter. During halftime, the coaches explained what was being called, and the only reason we had bonus free throws in the second half of either game was because of the score dictating a fouling situation. I just feel that at the high school level, they should be playing by the rules. Obviously there is some advantage/disadvantage called especially if you have a couple of really, really bad teams, but I try to stay on the same page as when I work varsity.

[TimTaylor]

Chess Ref,

Advantage/Disadvantage is an important concept in basketball officiating, and I try to be consistent with my foul calls regardless of the level, but it can come into play - as Blindzebra intimated, contact that may not create a disadvantage at a higher level could definitely do so at a lower level where the players are not yet capable of playing through the contact. Therefore with respect to fouls/incidental contact, lower level games may need to be called tighter at times than higher level games would be.

With violations it can be almost the opposite & this is where you might cut them a little slack at lower levels (GS & maybe some MS). Think back to some of the ball handling discussions we had on volleyball - same principle applies. As the age/level of play increases, so does the "height of the bar" the players skills must meet. By the time they hit HS there shouldn't be any allowance.

Part of our job is to keep the game flowing as smoothly as possible. You have to call the obvious, but in marginal situations, the proper use of the advantage/disadvantage concept is a big part of making that work.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by zebraman
The good news for you is that as you progess to higher levels, the talent level gets better and the coaches generally are better at letting us ref while they stick to coaching. Varsity games are the easiest to officiate.

I disagree. I will try to say this delicately - some 8th grade games are easier to ref than some varsity games. Some coaches fail to tell their players that when A1 has the ball you can't just go up and grab it. Meanwhile A1 allows them to grab it. Multiply this by 100 and factor in the failed attempts by both players and there you have it: a game that is not easier to officiate.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by tomegun

I disagree. I will try to say this delicately - some 8th grade games are easier to ref than some varsity games. Some coaches fail to tell their players that when A1 has the ball you can't just go up and grab it. Meanwhile A1 allows them to grab it. Multiply this by 100 and factor in the failed attempts by both players and there you have it: a game that is not easier to officiate.

Tomegun,

You lost me. If A1 has the ball, why can't another player grab it? You must have left something out here.

Z

[tomegun]

OK, on some levels, players will play defense when their opponent has the ball. On other levels, players think that no matter what, they can just go and start grabbing for the ball. On this level there is a high rate of success for this action.

Do you understand?

[zebraman]

Originally posted by tomegun
OK, on some levels, players will play defense when their opponent has the ball. On other levels, players think that no matter what, they can just go and start grabbing for the ball. On this level there is a high rate of success for this action.

Do you understand?

I guess. I still think 99% of varsity games are easier to officiate than 99% of 8th grade games. In general, the higher level games have better flow and coaches and participants with a better understanding. You also generally have better partners on higher level games which also makes it easier.

Z

[tomegun]

OK, let me clearer. I don't mean any offense to anyone.

What game is easier to officiate, a freshman boys game or a varsity girls game? IMO, many girls aren't taught the fundamentals of the game. They don't know that they have to play D instead of just running up and reaching for the ball. The player with the ball doesn't know how to protect the ball so we end up deciding if we have a foul or a held ball. We all know there are many more held balls in a girls' game.
The flip side of this is there is a girls' coach in Vegas that is going for her 4th or 5th straight state title. She teaches her girls on a whole different level and it shows. She has a player named Italy that started as freshman and she can flat out play. I know she was taught the game the right way and she just breezes through games because of it. That is one of many examples.

[JRutledge]

This is the reason why when you work higher level ball you get more satisfaction out of your officiating. Despite what anyone says here there is nothing you are going to say that will make most of these coaches happy. If the coaches were that good or trained, they would not be coaching this level. Think about it for a second, coaches at these levels put in a lot of time coaching, get paid less and deal with more crap from parents that immediately think their kid is going to be the next great thing. Many of the kids that play lower level ball will never play again and the coach will get frustrated and quit or they will get promoted when the other coaches either quit or leave on their own.

Case in point the games I worked yesterday. I worked a double header Freshman Tournament and I cannot think of any real complaint all 4 coaches had. There was one coach that asked a question and after I gave my explanation, he never said another word to me the rest of the night. I called nothing different than any other game. I called the game the best way I knew how and we had many sequences where nothing was called where you could make an argument something should have been called. Not a significant word out of either coach about anything. It was clear that these coaches understood their role and did not sweat every call or they had officials that TÂ’d them up in the past and they learned their lesson. Either way there was not a big problem the entire night. Coaches get it or they do not get it. All you can do is answer their questions and give them an explanation. All you can do is control what you do and only what you say. Coaches have to understand what is going on and either accepts your explanation and behaves appropriately. If they do not act in a sportsmanlike manner, then they are taking a chance that some official will pull their card. If they role the dice, they just might crap out.

Peace