10 second call by C

[jritchie]

last night in the uk/iowa game uk was pressing and the "c" blew the whistle pointed at the shot clock and held up 10 fingers and called the 10 second count!!! Is that something that normally happens at that level????

[ChuckElias]

"Normally", no. But it's great that somebody was aware of where the clock was. Great pick-up by the C.

[jritchie]

i was thinking in small college games that the shot clock always don't start when it supposed to or is started early, so we can't always go by that, but i think at that level they have the little switches on them so they can start it when the ball comes in so they know when it gets down to 25 anyone can call it...i guess that is what was going on their!!! thanks

[David M]

Is starting the count different in the NCAA than it is in HS? In HS we start the count when control is established. Does it start on the touch in NCAA?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by David M
Is starting the count different in the NCAA than it is in HS? In HS we start the count when control is established. Does it start on the touch in NCAA?

In NCAA, there is Team Control during a throw-in. So, as soon as A1 touches the ball inbounds, the 10-second count starts.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by jritchie

So you are saying when A1 picks up the ball to inbounds, they only have 10 seconds to throw it in and to get it up the court?????

i was thinking they had 4.9 seconds to throw it in and then 9.9 seconds to get it over mid court before a violation!!!

so you are saying the shot clock starts when the ball is still out of bounds for the throw in as long as A1 has control out of bounds??????

Take a closer look at what Bob wrote, maybe something new will jump out at you.

[jritchie]

having a bad day!!! can't read for nothing!! Very sorry Bob!!!

[M&M Guy]

Ok, I'm confused. I have never seen a C call the 10-sec. count; I have always considered that the T's call, since they have the count. In NFHS, isn't there even something in the book about not using the clock for the count, and that it should be the official's count alone? Is this a different mechanic in NCAA? Do you use the shot clock to help determine a 10-sec. violation? What if the shot clock started early and the T is at "8" in his count? (Granted, I'm a little more familiar with NCAA-W, so I don't pay attention to those trivial little items like 10-second counts... )

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Take a closer look at what Bob wrote, maybe something new will jump out at you.

So, can we just "pretend" to count...and go with the shot clock...and call the violation @ 25?

I'm guessing the crew "discussed" the 10-second call after the game!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
Ok, I'm confused. I have never seen a C call the 10-sec. count; I have always considered that the T's call, since they have the count. In NFHS, isn't there even something in the book about not using the clock for the count, and that it should be the official's count alone? Is this a different mechanic in NCAA? Do you use the shot clock to help determine a 10-sec. violation? What if the shot clock started early and the T is at "8" in his count? (Granted, I'm a little more familiar with NCAA-W, so I don't pay attention to those trivial little items like 10-second counts... )

Well, M(do you mind if I call you by your first name?), it's not really a bad idea even in FED sometimes if you're able to use the clock for help on a 10-second count-- if the count started simultaneously with the clock starting and you've got the clock in line with what you're trying to keep an eye on out there. Usually doesn't work out that nicely though, especially if you get some defensive pressure. Don't wanna be watching the clock while the dribbler's getting raped, do we?

You're probably thinking of the NFHS case book play where the the 10-second count and the clock both started simultaneously with a back-court throw-in and 12 seconds left in a quarter, and the horn then went off with the team with the ball still in the backcourt. Well, as the old saying goes, that's tough DeNucci's. (). There's no rule saying that you can re-set the clock in that one just because the official screwed up his 10-second count.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:33 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by jritchie
last night in the uk/iowa game uk was pressing and the "c" blew the whistle pointed at the shot clock and held up 10 fingers and called the 10 second count!!! Is that something that normally happens at that level????

"The Trail has the count, Coach, not me."

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref


So, can we just "pretend" to count...and go with the shot clock...and call the violation @ 25?

I dunno if "pretend" is the right word but I make damn sure the shot clock is not at 26 when I'm about to call a 10 second violation. Of course you're not always going to be at 10 when the shot clock hits 25, but if I started my 10 second count at the same time the shot clock started then we'll have a whistle at 25, not 23.

I'm guessing the crew "discussed" the 10-second call after the game!

Or maybe they discussed it during pregame?

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, M(do you mind if I call you by your first name?), it's not really a bad idea even in FED sometimes if you're able to use the clock for help on a 10-second count-- if the count started simultaneously with the clock starting and you've got the clock in line with what you're trying to keep an eye on out there. Usually doesn't work out that nicely though, especially if you get some defensive pressure. Don't wanna be watching the clock while the dribbler's getting raped, do we?

You're probably thinking of the NFHS case book play where the the 10-second count and the clock both started simultaneously with a back-court throw-in and 12 seconds left in a quarter, and the horn then went off with the team with the ball still in the backcourt. Well, as the old saying goes, that's tough DeNucci's. (). There's no rule saying that you can re-set the clock in that one just because the official screwed up his 10-second count.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:33 PM]

Well, J(I hope you don't mind; we're getting so familiar with each other), I agree we can glance at the clock to keep our count accurate. I actually tried this once - I timed ten different refs counting to 10, and they were all between 12-18 seconds. No one was too fast. So we probably need to be more aware of how fast (or slow) we count.

But I'm surprised the C still came out with this call. Wouldn't the T be giving the visible count? How would this be different than, say, you're up to 4 on your throw-in count, and you partner blows the whistle for the violation, because you counted too slow? I guess that's why I'm asking - is this correct under NCAA mechanics? Or was the C maybe "calling outside his area", bailing out the T because they were busy with the pressure? Is using the shot clock more acceptable for the count, thereby enabling the C to make the call if necessary?

[ChuckElias]

Is the C over-ruling the Trail's count? Shouldn't the C blow the whistle and go to the Trail and tell him that he has definite knowledge of the count, and then ask if the Trail wants to change his count and call the violation? What if the Trail is damn sure of his count, too, and doesn't want to call the violation? What do we do, thumb-wrestle for it in the center circle?[/sarcasm]

The C knows for sure the 10 seconds have expired. No discussion; just make the call.

Just like when your partner puts up the touchdown signal and you saw the shooter's toe on the line. Same exact thing. Especially when you discuss both of them in pre-game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
[/B]

But I'm surprised the C still came out with this call. Wouldn't the T be giving the visible count? How would this be different than, say, you're up to 4 on your throw-in count, and you partner blows the whistle for the violation, because you counted too slow? I guess that's why I'm asking - is this correct under NCAA mechanics? Or was the C maybe "calling outside his area", bailing out the T because they were busy with the pressure? Is using the shot clock more acceptable for the count, thereby enabling the C to make the call if necessary? [/B][/QUOTE]It's my understanding too that the trail usually has the count in nCAA 3-man mechanics. As Dan said, maybe they pre-gamed the C watching the shot clock if he didn't have anything else in his primary to really worry about. Not really that bad an idea either imo.

It would be different from a visual throw-in count in that you have the accuracy of the shot clock to precisely let you know when the 10 seconds is up. On a visual count, like a throw-in count, both you and your partner would be guessing or estimating as to when the 5 second count actually elapsed.

Btw, if my partner blew a violation whistle because I was too slow on my visual throw-in count, I would ask him if he could accurately count to two- just before I kicked him in the nuts.