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-   -   3 seconds.....are you nuts ?? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/23275-3-seconds-you-nuts.html)

assignmentmaker Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:12am
Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by TimTaylor
Depends on when my closely guarded count started. If the offensive player was outside the paint when LGP was established & I stared my count a second or two before he dribbled into the paint, then I might make the 5 second call. Otherwise, if he was farting around in the paint for that long I've probably got a three second violation.

Please note the words "immediately" and "begins a try" in the rules sections you cited. If the defense is good enough to make the offensive player significantly hesitate or delay beginning the try for 3 seconds, the act is clearly no longer immediate. IMHO the intent of the rules cited is not to penalize good defense.
What about this scenario: A1, high up in the lane, receives a pass, turns and faces up, upfakes, dribbles to the basket, abrubtly stops the dribble by catching the ball while in the air, upfakes, and, when B1 goes to one side, pivots legally and attempts a layup.

Are you going to call 3-seconds during this sequence? My observation is that officials do not interpret "Begins a try" as limited to "continuous motion". A1 can do more 'stuff' once s/he has begun a try than continuous motion would allow.

The sequence for A1, above, could consume 5-seconds. It's unlikely, no doubt, but I'm just making the point that a 5-second violation is a kind of (somewhat academic) limit on how long the 'allowance' in the lane can possibly endure.
could possibly endure.

ChuckElias Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:18am
Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
What about this scenario: A1, high up in the lane, receives a pass, turns and faces up, upfakes, dribbles to the basket, abrubtly stops the dribble by catching the ball while in the air, <font color = red>upfakes</font>, and, when B1 goes to one side, pivots legally and attempts a layup.

The sequence for A1, above, could consume 5-seconds.
No, it couldn't; b/c if the above sequence took longer than 3-seconds, then it would be a 3 seconds violation at the "red" upfake. Once he pulls the ball down after the fake, he's no longer making a move to the basket.

Dan_ref Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:26am
Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
What about this scenario: A1, high up in the lane, receives a pass, turns and faces up, upfakes, dribbles to the basket, abrubtly stops the dribble by catching the ball while in the air, <font color = red>upfakes</font>, and, when B1 goes to one side, pivots legally and attempts a layup.

The sequence for A1, above, could consume 5-seconds.
No, it couldn't; b/c if the above sequence took longer than 3-seconds, then it would be a 3 seconds violation at the "red" upfake. Once he pulls the ball down after the fake, he's no longer making a move to the basket.
What?

As he pulls the ball down he's stepping towards the basket for his layup.

If we take your advice the whistle will sound as the ball is hitting the backboard on the layup.

ChuckElias Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:37am
Re: Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
As he pulls the ball down he's stepping towards the basket for his layup.
What you describe is not an upfake. An upfake is the fake of a jumpshot: standing on the ground, then moving the ball and head up to simulate jumping, then bringing the head and ball back down while the defender jumps.

If the ballhandler attempts that move, he doesn't get to put the ball up.

Dan_ref Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:46am
Re: Re: Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
As he pulls the ball down he's stepping towards the basket for his layup.
What you describe is not an upfake. An upfake is the fake of a jumpshot: standing on the ground, then moving the ball and head up to simulate jumping, then bringing the head and ball back down while the defender jumps.

If the ballhandler attempts that move, he doesn't get to put the ball up.
I know what an upfake is & I disagree.

A1 can certainly bring the ball back down while stepping around his defender.

Camron Rust Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:48am
Re: Re: Re: We're talkin' loose balls here
 
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker


And that the faking isn't part of continuous motion?
No. It's not.

Jurassic Referee Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:13pm
Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
[/B]
What about this scenario: A1, high up in the lane, receives a pass, turns and faces up, upfakes, dribbles to the basket, <font color = red>abrubtly stops the dribble by catching the ball while in the air</font>, upfakes, and, when B1 goes to one side, pivots legally and attempts a layup.

[/B][/QUOTE]If the player stopped their dribble to the basket, then that's when the exception ends. If the count is at 3 by that time, it's a violation. The player can dribble <b>directly</b> to the basket and then shoot, but that player <b>cannot</b> stop anytime during that sequence. Iow, you can dribble straight to the basket and put the ball up-- but nuthin' else- no fakes, no pauses, no nuthin'. Similarly, if they're into a shooting motion, they must complete that motion without stopping to fake.

bob jenkins Tue Nov 22, 2005 02:04pm
Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If the player stopped their dribble to the basket, then that's when the exception ends. If the count is at 3 by that time, it's a violation.
The dribble ends sometime during a lay-up -- and I wouldn't call the violation then.

IMO, as long as the player with the ball is looking at the basket (and I don't mean that literally), I'm not inclined to call a three-second violation, no matter how many times s/he fakes. If s/he looks to pass, or actually passes the ball, I'll get the violation. And, no, I don't have any cases that specifically say this.

Dan_ref Tue Nov 22, 2005 02:18pm
Re: Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If the player stopped their dribble to the basket, then that's when the exception ends. If the count is at 3 by that time, it's a violation.
The dribble ends sometime during a lay-up -- and I wouldn't call the violation then.

IMO, as long as the player with the ball is looking at the basket (and I don't mean that literally), I'm not inclined to call a three-second violation, no matter how many times s/he fakes. If s/he looks to pass, or actually passes the ball, I'll get the violation. And, no, I don't have any cases that specifically say this.
And ya know what, so would Chuck, regardless of what he says here. I've seen him flagrantly disregard & ignore this rule in person.

Jurassic Referee Tue Nov 22, 2005 02:49pm
Re: Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If the player stopped their dribble to the basket, then that's when the exception ends. If the count is at 3 by that time, it's a violation.
<font color = red>The dribble ends sometime during a lay-up -- and I wouldn't call the violation then</font>.

IMO, as long as the player with the ball is looking at the basket (and I don't mean that literally), I'm not inclined to call a three-second violation, no matter how many times s/he fakes. If s/he looks to pass, or actually passes the ball, I'll get the violation. And, no, I don't have any cases that specifically say this.
I wouldn't either, <b>if</b> the player with the ball seamlessly went from the the dribble to the lay-up or dunk. If the dribbler goes to the bucket, but stops and then head-fakes or sumthin' like that without immediately shooting, then I'm calling it. That's the purpose and intent of the allowance imo.

ChuckElias Tue Nov 22, 2005 04:10pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
A1 can certainly bring the ball back down while stepping around his defender.
He certainly can, but that's not what I would ever call an upfake. If the player is still moving to the basket, fine. But if the player moves away from the basket -- as he would do in an upfake -- his immediate attempt to score has ended. And if I'm already up to 5 (as in the original example), that gets a whistle.

ChuckElias Tue Nov 22, 2005 04:19pm
Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
IMO, as long as the player with the ball is looking at the basket (and I don't mean that literally), I'm not inclined to call a three-second violation, no matter how many times s/he fakes.
And ya know what, so would Chuck, regardless of what he says here.
I really don't think I would. If you're gonna stand in the lane and do 50 headfakes, you're gonna get a whistle. That's always the way I've been taught, and I really believe it. I'm not just arguing for the sake of it. You don't get 7 seconds (2+ in the lane, and then 5 closely-guarded) instead of 3 just b/c you're working on your head-fake.

Quote:
I've seen him flagrantly disregard & ignore this rule in person.
I often flagrantly and intentionally disregard the 3-second rule (one of the few times in basketball that intentional and flagrant go together); but not when a player has the ball in the lane. That's a completely different situation where a distinct advantage is gained unfairly.

assignmentmaker Tue Nov 22, 2005 04:25pm
Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
IMO, as long as the player with the ball is looking at the basket (and I don't mean that literally), I'm not inclined to call a three-second violation, no matter how many times s/he fakes.
And ya know what, so would Chuck, regardless of what he says here.
I really don't think I would. If you're gonna stand in the lane and do 50 headfakes, you're gonna get a whistle. That's always the way I've been taught, and I really believe it. I'm not just arguing for the sake of it. You don't get 7 seconds (2+ in the lane, and then 5 closely-guarded) instead of 3 just b/c you're working on your head-fake.

Quote:
I've seen him flagrantly disregard & ignore this rule in person.
I often flagrantly and intentionally disregard the 3-second rule (one of the few times in basketball that intentional and flagrant go together); but not when a player has the ball in the lane. That's a completely different situation where a distinct advantage is gained unfairly.
It would be nice if 'they' provided some guidance. I think the advocates here have done what can be done, in its absence.

Dan_ref Tue Nov 22, 2005 04:41pm
Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
IMO, as long as the player with the ball is looking at the basket (and I don't mean that literally), I'm not inclined to call a three-second violation, no matter how many times s/he fakes.
And ya know what, so would Chuck, regardless of what he says here.
I really don't think I would. If you're gonna stand in the lane and do 50 headfakes, you're gonna get a whistle. That's always the way I've been taught, and I really believe it. I'm not just arguing for the sake of it. You don't get 7 seconds (2+ in the lane, and then 5 closely-guarded) instead of 3 just b/c you're working on your head-fake.
I'm not even sure I see the original play consuming 5 seconds, but now you've got it up to 7, and the poor SOB has acquired tuorettes, 50 headfakes in that 5 seconds (that's 2 headfakes per second for you math illiterates out there). A1 is guilty of 1, maybe 2 headfakes on his journey from the FT line to the basket.

C'mon Chuck, this aint rocket science. If A1's making progress and/or trying to get a shot off then he can stay in there forever. If he passes out & stays in call it.

ChuckElias Tue Nov 22, 2005 04:58pm
Re: Re: Re: Duly noted
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
If A1's making progress and/or trying to get a shot off then he can stay in there forever.
I could not disagree with this more. If A1 is moving to the basket or is about to attempt a try, withhold the whistle. As soon as A1 is no longer attempting a try, it's a violation (assuming that the count has exceeded 3 seconds). If you pull the ball back down for a fake, whistle. If you turn away from the basket for a spin, whistle. That's the way I was taught.


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