3 seconds.....are you nuts ??

[WeekendRef]

I know this has come up before and I am fairly certain I know the answer but....
A1 is setting up in the paint looking for a pass and has been there about 2 seconds when the pass comes in and is then dropped by A1 . Ball remains in the key as does A1 as he tries to regain control of the now loose ball, this battle goes on for about 4 or 5 seconds .
Since Team A still has team control can I call 3 seconds ? If I can call 3 seconds would any of you ever call it ?
I checked the case book and rule book and could find nothing that really spelled this out .
Thanks and sorry for bringing this one back up....

[ChuckElias]

In NCAA, the 3-second count continues. This is stated explicitly in AR 16 (pg.129).

In FED, the 3-second count continues, but I can't remember the explicit citation. It was changed a couple years ago and I thought there was a case play, but I can't find it. The 3-second count used to be discontinued during an interrupted dribble, but then they deleted that exception. Can't find it now. . .

[JRutledge]

If you are being technical, calling 3 seconds would be the proper call. If it is not clear if B would get the ball, I would do my best to not make that call unless A gets the ball back. By rule if team control has not been lost you would have a 3 second call. I just do not think that would be my first concern.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

From "COMMENTS ON THE 2002-03 RULES REVISIONS" from that year's rule book:

THREE-SECOND RESTRICTIONS REMAIN IN EFFECT DURING AN INTERRUPTED DRIBBLE(9-7):
This rule change deletes the requirement for the three-second count to be terminated during an interrupted dribble. By rule, team control remains in effect during an interrupted dribble, therefore the three-second restrictions should also apply. Also by definition, an interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is "loose". Team control continues (as does the three-second restriction). Therefore the rules applying to a loose ball and an interrupted dribble should be the same".

Basically, the FED just simplified the rule down to say 3-seconds applies anytime there is team control in the front court.

[WeekendRef]

Nice find Jurassic , thanks for your help !
I know we don't pander to the crowd/coaches but I can imagine the reaction of both if a 3 second call was made in the situation described above . I think the coaches eyes would glaze over when I gave him the explanation....then he would puke on my shoes and then I would be forced to run him .
I think my counting to 3 will get a lot longer in this instance !

[RookieDude]

Actually, the NFHS does give allowances for a player to be in the lane for over 3 seconds.

9-7-3
Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.

Edited for a case play:
9.7.2
The count on a player in the restricted area is suspended when that player begins a try for goal.



[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 21st, 2005 at 12:56 PM]

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Actually, the NFHS does give allowances for a player to be in the lane for over 3 seconds.

9-7-3
Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.

Edited for a case play:
9.7.2
The count on a player in the restricted area is suspended when that player begins a try for goal.



[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 21st, 2005 at 12:56 PM]

We're talkin' loose balls here - the 'allowance is for a player dribbling in or trying for goal.

Said player could, conceivably, shake and bake for 5-seconds. I have been looking for this for years so I could call 5-seconds . . .

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
[/B]

We're talkin' loose balls here - the 'allowance is for a player dribbling in or trying for goal.

Said player could, conceivably, shake and bake for 5-seconds. I have been looking for this for years so I could call 5-seconds . . . [/B][/QUOTE]Nope, you're misunderstanding the allowance. Said player can't shake and bake for 5 seconds. The allowance applies only to a player dribbling directly to the basket or finishing a move to score. The allowance doesn't include shake-n-baking or stopping for head fakes or any other kinda fakes. That's not the purpose or intent of the rule.

[refnrev]

Yep, what Jurassic just said. Shake and bake doesn't work here. 3 doesn't = 5

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by refnrev
Yep, what Jurassic just said. Shake and bake doesn't work here. 3 doesn't = 5

I'm saying if you're closely guarded in the lane for five seconds while making a move which temporarily exempts you from a 3-second violation, that's it, it's a five second violation. You say no?

[TimTaylor]

Depends on when my closely guarded count started. If the offensive player was outside the paint when LGP was established & I stared my count a second or two before he dribbled into the paint, then I might make the 5 second call. Otherwise, if he was farting around in the paint for that long I've probably got a three second violation.

Please note the words "immediately" and "begins a try" in the rules sections you cited. If the defense is good enough to make the offensive player significantly hesitate or delay beginning the try for 3 seconds, the act is clearly no longer immediate. IMHO the intent of the rules cited is not to penalize good defense.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TimTaylor

Please note the words "immediately" and "begins a try" in the rules sections you cited. If the defense is good enough to make the offensive player significantly hesitate or delay beginning the try for 3 seconds, the act is clearly no longer immediate. IMHO the intent of the rules cited is not to penalize good defense.

Exactly. The rule is intended to let you complete a try that you started before your original 3-seconds was up.

If you hesitate to "shake-n-bake", you're gonna get called. That's not the intent of the allowance.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

We're talkin' loose balls here - the 'allowance is for a player dribbling in or trying for goal.

Said player could, conceivably, shake and bake for 5-seconds. I have been looking for this for years so I could call 5-seconds . . . [/B]

Nope, you're misunderstanding the allowance. Said player can't shake and bake for 5 seconds. The allowance applies only to a player dribbling directly to the basket or finishing a move to score. The allowance doesn't include shake-n-baking or stopping for head fakes or any other kinda fakes. That's not the purpose or intent of the rule. [/B][/QUOTE]

So you're saying it doesn't include anything that wouldn't be included in continuous motion?

And that the faking isn't part of continuous motion?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Nope, you're misunderstanding the allowance. Said player can't shake and bake for 5 seconds. The allowance applies only to a player dribbling directly to the basket or finishing a move to score. The allowance doesn't include shake-n-baking or stopping for head fakes or any other kinda fakes. That's not the purpose or intent of the rule. [/B]

So you're saying it doesn't include anything that wouldn't be included in continuous motion?

And that the faking isn't part of continuous motion? [/B][/QUOTE]Yes. You have to go straight to the hoop. No stopping and then head-faking to get the defender off their feet. If you stopped to "shake-n-bake" any time during continuous motion or the dribble, the allowance doesn't apply. Of course, anything the shooter does in the air is OK- until s/he comes down.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by TimTaylor
Depends on when my closely guarded count started. If the offensive player was outside the paint when LGP was established & I stared my count a second or two before he dribbled into the paint, then I might make the 5 second call. Otherwise, if he was farting around in the paint for that long I've probably got a three second violation.

Please note the words "immediately" and "begins a try" in the rules sections you cited. If the defense is good enough to make the offensive player significantly hesitate or delay beginning the try for 3 seconds, the act is clearly no longer immediate. IMHO the intent of the rules cited is not to penalize good defense.

What about this scenario: A1, high up in the lane, receives a pass, turns and faces up, upfakes, dribbles to the basket, abrubtly stops the dribble by catching the ball while in the air, upfakes, and, when B1 goes to one side, pivots legally and attempts a layup.

Are you going to call 3-seconds during this sequence? My observation is that officials do not interpret "Begins a try" as limited to "continuous motion". A1 can do more 'stuff' once s/he has begun a try than continuous motion would allow.

The sequence for A1, above, could consume 5-seconds. It's unlikely, no doubt, but I'm just making the point that a 5-second violation is a kind of (somewhat academic) limit on how long the 'allowance' in the lane can possibly endure.