Basket Good?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef

JR,

Although I understand the rule references, this would mean that there is no possibility that the defense can score an "own goal", and there are provisions made for that in the rules. Rule 5.2.3 states "... if a player scores a field goal in the opponent's basket, it is not credited to a player, but it is indicated as a footnote." This would state to me that there IS the possibility for Team B to 'score' a basket while going for a defensive rebound. In the situation described above, this would be a made basket for team A as the player from B was "trying" to secure the rebound, but never actually had control. The ball never hit the floor or any other object to cause the ball to be dead before it passed thru the cylinder. Therefore, count two points for team A.

You misunderstand the rule references.

A goal is scored when a "live" ball passes through the goal.

As long as the ball is live, either team can cause a goal to be scored in either basket....it doesn't matter how it got there or what the intent was (except for a throwin). Scoring a goal, however, is NOT the same as a try. A "try" is an attempt to throw the ball into your own goal (not your opponents).

Normally, the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds. The ball remains live after the horn sounds if the ball has been released on a "try". Since a try is defined to be at your own goal, the defensive action that causes the ball to go through the goal is not a try and the ball becomes dead at the horn. Contact with the floor or other object is not a factor.

[SeanFitzRef]

JR,

In this instance, Casebook 4.41.4 Sit B makes my case. Try is obviously no good, but deflects off another player from EITHER team and into the basket. Why is the ball dead in the situation described above? It wasn't in contact with any player, the floor, or out of bounds when the horn sounds. No whistle was blown to stop the play. Ball is in the air above the ring, then passes through as time expires. That is how I'm understanding the situation.

Camron, read yours after I typed this, but you both are right, in that it is not an actual 'try' when B deflects the rebound. But the ball is in flight prior to the horn. does it have to pass thru before the horn sounds?

[Edited by SeanFitzRef on Nov 16th, 2005 at 05:10 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
JR,

In this instance, Casebook 4.41.4 Sit B makes my case. Try is obviously no good, but deflects off another player from EITHER team and into the basket. Why is the ball dead in the situation described above? It wasn't in contact with any player, the floor, or out of bounds when the horn sounds. No whistle was blown to stop the play. Ball is in the air above the ring, then passes through as time expires. That is how I'm understanding the situation.

Camron, read yours after I typed this, but you both are right, in that it is not an actual 'try' when B deflects the rebound. But the ball is in flight prior to the horn. does it have to pass thru before the horn sounds?

Yes, it has to pass through before the horn sounds. That's exactly what rule 6-7-6 is telling you. R6-7-6 also applies to casebook play 4.41.4SitB. That case book play isn't applicable either because it references a "live" ball going through the basket. If the horn hadda went off before that "live" ball went through, that "live" ball woulda become dead immediately- because it wasn't a "try"- and therefore no basket woulda scored.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
JR,

In this instance, Casebook 4.41.4 Sit B makes my case. Try is obviously no good, but deflects off another player from EITHER team and into the basket. Why is the ball dead in the situation described above? It wasn't in contact with any player, the floor, or out of bounds when the horn sounds. No whistle was blown to stop the play. Ball is in the air above the ring, then passes through as time expires. That is how I'm understanding the situation.

A goal is only made when a LIVE ball passes through or remains in the basket. (5-1-1)

The ball becomes DEAD when the horn sounds, unless a TRY is in flight (6-7-6, excp A)

In the play that started this thread, there wasn't a try, so the exception doesn't apply, so the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds, so the basket doesn't count.

In 4.41.4B, there was no horn so the ball didn't become dead, so points are scored (but note that only two points are scored because the three-=point try ended).

In 4.41.4A, the touching doesn't end the try, so the exception applies so points are scored.

See case 6.7.6A for an example where there is no try and time expires before the ball enters the basket. Althought the "method" of getting the ball into the basket is different between the case book and this thread, the effect is the same.

[SeanFitzRef]

Thanks for all the info, I stand corrected. Appreciate the input. I can now go and reconstruct my interpretation of these events in case I ever run into them in a "live" situation.

[drothamel]

Here is the "live" situation, in case you don't see the other thread that I started without reading this one, unfortuantely.

http://www.davidcatalano.com/eklekto...zer_beater.htm

[Nevadaref]

Seth Greenberg, the VA tech coach, was just on CSTV discussing this play. He said that his player, who is a freshman, when for the rebound and tipped it in. He couldn't fault him. It was a mistake, but not one made on purpose and the kid was hustling.

The coach gave no indication that he thinks the basket shouldn't have counted. He is blissfully unaware!

[RedRef]

To answer a couple questions from the other thread that deals with this play...

- no there wasn't a monitor to review

- the play did start off a sideline throw-in, opposite the table

- the T official administered that throw-in right about mid-court

- the C official (table side right next to coach) scored the basket immediately

When I saw the play live, I thought the C called basket interference and that was why he was scoring the basket. (Otherwise, it's not his call.) The video combined with several pictures of the play definitely shows it wasn't basket interference and definitely a tip before the buzzer.

As I mentioned earlier, it was a tough play to call live. I'm thinking there will be a monitor at all games from now on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RedRef
To answer a couple questions from the other thread that deals with this play...

- no there wasn't a monitor to review

- the play did start off a sideline throw-in, opposite the table

- the T official administered that throw-in right about mid-court

- the C official (table side right next to coach) scored the basket immediately

When I saw the play live, I thought the C called basket interference and that was why he was scoring the basket. (Otherwise, it's not his call.) The video combined with several pictures of the play definitely shows it wasn't basket interference and definitely a tip before the buzzer.

As I mentioned earlier, it was a tough play to call live. I'm thinking there will be a monitor at all games from now on.

Any idea why the C was so far outa position? He was a step above the top of the arc- about even to where the T should be on a last second shot.

[SeanFitzRef]

JR,

After seeing the play, and from what was described and discussed earlier, you are saying that this basket should not have counted? Per NFHS R6.7.6?

[RedRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Any idea why the C was so far outa position? He was a step above the top of the arc- about even to where the T should be on a last second shot.

I think the camera angle has distorted the view of the C position. I just re-watched the video and it appears to me that the C is about free-throw line extended...maybe just slightly higher.

I was on the table-side closer to the mid-court area...I had a good view of the play and still would have missed it without review.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
JR,

After seeing the play, and from what was described and discussed earlier, you are saying that this basket should not have counted? Per NFHS R6.7.6?

Nope, I'm saying that the basket shouldn't have counted as per NCAA rule 6-5-1e. That's basically the same as the FED rule.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

2) B1's tap isn't a try because it's not directed at his team's basket. Rule 4-41-2.

3) B1's tap was still in the air when the horn sounded. The ball now becomes dead, as per rule 6-7-6. You cannot score a goal if the ball isn't live, as per rule 5-1-1.

Technically, it's not even a tap. A tap has to be directed at a player's own basket. It's just a bat of a live ball that becomes dead as soon as time expires. Same result.

[Edited by Mregor on Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:30 PM]