halftime conversation

[Junker]

I read this one the same as Dan. It sounded like the possible break was just starting, we don't know if a team was in the middle of driving the lane. We either need more explanation or it might be one of those "had to be there" plays.

[SeanFitzRef]

One reason I have started stepping away from "Men's League" games is the conduct. The "Men" act like 2-yr-olds, whining about every call as if the NBA title were on the line. And I hate to belittle and demean all 2-yr-olds by lumping them in with these buffoons!

Last two "Men's" games I did, I gave out 7 T's, and I knew it was time to leave it alone. Four for fighting (because they didn't want to get touched), two for language towards my partner and I, and one to clean up after my partner hit the clown with a T.

Sad part about it was that these guys scream about how inept the officials are, but as I had to remind him, "I don't see you cashing any NBA checks either!"

[Junker]

My theory on adult leagues (which I worked 2 days, and will never, ever work again) is that they 1)think they're still the players they were in college or HS, 2) are used to playing pick up ball often with hybrid, misunderstood rules and have trouble understanding how the game is actually called, 3)have no understanding of advantage/disadvantage, and 4) learn their rules from t.v. and radio announcers.

[SeanFitzRef]

Originally posted by Junker
.... and 4) learn their rules from t.v. and radio announcers.

TV/Radio guys learn rules???? Rec league players learn???? Is this an April Fools' joke??

[Nu1]

In an attempt to add a little clarity, here goes...

The play was not an all-alone lay-up that rolled off the rim and was rebounded right under the basket. It was more of a drive into traffic...and more of a floating / running type shot than a lay-up. I'd say a couple feet inside the foul line.

B1 rebounds the shot at around the foul line or just below, turns, takes a couple dribbles and is near (but not across) the division line. So, yes, it is B1 who rebounds and it is B1 who initiates the break.

It seemed like A1 took a second or two to look at me in disgust before he said, "What the..." Again, it was not yelled, but it was clearly said. I think I was still down around the foul line (of A's basket) due to the fact that A1 shocked me with his comment...I knew he was getting a T and the action would be stopped in a moment, so I was just waiting to see if the break developed...and maybe a little of less-than %100 hustle ...maybe.

IMO, the break (or at least the possibility of it) had clearly started. That's why I waited. Right or wrong, I am comfortable with that part of my action.

What I'm not as sure of is, with this type of situation, is it just T once...T once and also T the second time (continued complaining)...T once but toss out? And then, how you would treat rec ball v. high school v. college.

Sorry for the confusion on the original post. I hope this helps.

[ref18]

Now, I used to think like truerookie, I used to be T-happy, but I've realized this, we're not out there for ourselves, latitude must be given to coaches, let them vent a bit, don't let it get out of hand, doing so will help strengthen relationships between players, coaches and us, the officials. This way we don't look like asses and we have a good time. This really doesn't sound like me, but in a situation like the one mentioned, there is a possible way to avoid the T, and it should be used, unless he's making it personal, or others can here, just talk to him quietly and talk him out of any technical foul he might get into.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Know what? I disagree. Simply because of the way I see this play unfolding.

The way I read this is that the comment was not made "in the middle of B's drive", it was made as B grabbed the rebound. If B had already pushed the ball up to midcourt or further then fine, give them a few seconds. But then what the heck was Nu1 still doing back there anyway if the ball was upcourt? Maybe there was a nifty outlet pass to get the ball upcourt, but I didn't read that in there.

The way I see this sitch hit the whistle right away.

Feel free to disagree. But take another look at his post. My guess his description is drawing a different mental picture for you versus what I see. I'm betting we would probably react similiarly in the same situation.

Originally posted by Nu1
A1 says, "What the f___ are you looking at?" I respond with, "Just a second..." ,u.as I watch if B1 is turning the rebound into a fastbreak or slowing it down. As I see B1 slow down I say...tweet..."Technical Foul on A1."

I have no problem with the way this was handled and would have handled it the same way myself, given his explanation.
Good job! That's exactly what you should have done!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 17th, 2005 at 04:26 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ref18
Now, I used to think like truerookie, I used to be T-happy, but I've realized this, we're not out there for ourselves, latitude must be given to coaches, let them vent a bit, don't let it get out of hand, doing so will help strengthen relationships between players, coaches and us, the officials. This way we don't look like asses and we have a good time. This really doesn't sound like me, but in a situation like the one mentioned, there is a possible way to avoid the T, and it should be used, unless he's making it personal, or others can here, just talk to him quietly and talk him out of any technical foul he might get into.

The Original Whackinator is dead?

Our Whackinator has turned warm and fuzzy and friendly?

Our Whackinator is now a cuddly l'il ol' teddybear?



Say it ain't so!

[ref18]

My old attitude didn't seem to get me anywhere, I started officiating in a new association this fall, and don't want to be known as the whackenator here. I think that will help my chances of advancement.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ref18
My old attitude didn't seem to get me anywhere, I started officiating in a new association this fall, and don't want to be known as the whackenator here. I think that will help my chances of advancement.

Teen-agers DO grow up!? That's my good news for the week, then!! Ref 18, you've restored my faith in humanity.

[drothamel]

Back to the post that started this thread for a moment:

When the coach says, "What do we need to do to get a charge," try the relpy, "What do you mean, coach?" Resist the temptation to answer his question outright. It is obvious that he is frustrated, but his question tells you little more than that. By asking him what he means, he will say something like, "my players are stationary," or "my players are getting there in time," or "you guys are screwing me." Respond accordingly.

Asking a coach what he or she means by a comment can do a number of things for you, 1) You really do find out what the coach actually means. Now you can respond accordingly and hopefully prevent the coach from getting more agitated. 2) It shows the coach that you are listening AND paying attention. 3) If you do have to whack the coach, it will be because of what the coach said to you in response to a simple question. That makes your whack much easier to justify on the incident report after the game.
4) Sometimes, it takes so much time for the coach to respond that the play has continued on, and you can move on.

This was something that I heard retired NBA referee Nolan Fine talk about. I started to use it, especially on my favorite coach's comment/question-- "How come they have 1 foul, and we have 6?" and it has worked very well.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by drothamel
Back to the post that started this thread for a moment:

When the coach says, "What do we need to do to get a charge," try the relpy, "What do you mean, coach?" Resist the temptation to answer his question outright. It is obvious that he is frustrated, but his question tells you little more than that. By asking him what he means, he will say something like, "my players are stationary," or "my players are getting there in time," or "you guys are screwing me." Respond accordingly.

Well said.

Mregor

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by Nu1
Canuck, I'm pretty new and I have a feeling I may have the "too-thicked-skin" problem also. But, I think I'm learning...a little.

I'm interested in thoughts on this T situation I had in an adult rec-league. Here's what happened and how I handled it. Sound good, bad, or in the middle? If it's HS or college, does it make a difference on how to handle it?

I'm the Lead when A1 drives, misses, thinks he got fouled...B1 gets rebound and is going the other way, with just about everyone else except A1. A1 says, "What the f___ are you looking at?" I respond with, "Just a second..." as I watch if B1 is turning the rebound into a fastbreak or slowing it down. As I see B1 slow down I say...tweet..."Technical Foul on A1." Team A has only five players and A1 has some kind of response like, "whatever" or something fairly harmless. But a responose none-the-less. I finish with, "Hey, you can finish with four if you want to. I really don't care." A1 walks away and we play from there.

With adult leagues you only have 2 choices;
1. Give them the T's they so richly deserve.
2. Don't work adult leagues.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by drothamel
Back to the post that started this thread for a moment:

When the coach says, "What do we need to do to get a charge," try the relpy, "What do you mean, coach?" Resist the temptation to answer his question outright. It is obvious that he is frustrated, but his question tells you little more than that. By asking him what he means, he will say something like, "my players are stationary," or "my players are getting there in time," or "you guys are screwing me." Respond accordingly.

Asking a coach what he or she means by a comment can do a number of things for you, 1) You really do find out what the coach actually means. Now you can respond accordingly and hopefully prevent the coach from getting more agitated. 2) It shows the coach that you are listening AND paying attention. 3) If you do have to whack the coach, it will be because of what the coach said to you in response to a simple question. That makes your whack much easier to justify on the incident report after the game.
4) Sometimes, it takes so much time for the coach to respond that the play has continued on, and you can move on.

This was something that I heard retired NBA referee Nolan Fine talk about. I started to use it, especially on my favorite coach's comment/question-- "How come they have 1 foul, and we have 6?" and it has worked very well.

While I can appreciate this, I wouldn't blanket that statement to all situations. In my case, asking "what do you mean" would likely only have escalated things into a confrontation. Let's face it, there was nothing fuzzy or confusing about his question ("what do we have to do go get a charge"). "What do you mean" could easily be interpreted as a smart-a** response or refusing to answer him. His original question, though elevated in tone and frustration, was valid - and not one that deserved or needed deflecting. He asked, I answered. He wasn't satisfied, but I wasn't expecting him to be, either. I got away from him with a quick rotation, anyway. It was his halftime actions I was more concerned with. And things there turned out okay.

I find that as I do more high-level games, I am paying way more attention to what I say, and don't rely as much on those lovely one-liners and questioning tactics anymore. They have their place, but these coaches are also a lot harder to manipulate.

[Nevadaref]

Just for those who don't know or haven't seen it before, the withheld whistle on the T case book play is 10.4.1 Situation E.