new team contol for HS

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by Smitty
Regardless of the other stuff you're all nitpicking over, this particular new rule, the team control foul rule, is not that difficult at all to grasp (certainly compared to some other new rules in the past) and will likely make our lives easier than harder. I like it.

The fact that coaches didn't seem to understand it in the summer is irrelevant. Since when do coaches understand anything about rules? There are only a couple new rules to deal with this year, and they are all pretty easy to understand and implement.

If it's not that hard to grasp, then why did I have a coach who also refs debating that I should be applying the rule? I agree, it's not that tough....I think the biggest thing is that it's different than what we're used to but it's not tough.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
But my point was that if they went to team control on throw in those rules would have to be modified or clarified.

An alternative maybe would be to just write up a throw-in as an exception-- similar to sumthin' like the frontcourt/backcourt exception in 9-9-3.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

If it's not that hard to grasp, then why did I have a coach who also refs debating that I should be applying the rule? I agree, it's not that tough....I think the biggest thing is that it's different than what we're used to but it's not tough.

Many coaches do not get the 3-second rule either and that one's been in there for a while. After the first few games, the less clueless coaches will start to get it and the other's will still be yelling about "over the back" and "reaching" anyway.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
But my point was that if they went to team control on throw in those rules would have to be modified or clarified.

Not really - because there wouldn't be team control in the front court. When you hand the ball to the player OOB under the basket for the throw-in, there would be team control, but because the player is OOB, he's not in the front court, or back court, for that matter. He's OOB. See what I'm getting at? It doesn't matter where along the baseline or sideline that player is, that player is not in the front court until he's in-bounds. So, while he's holding the ball OOB for the throw-in, there wouldn't be a 3-sec. count in the lane, because the ball's not in the front court. The same way, if the player throws it all the way to the back court and his teammate picks it up there, no violation. Because the ball went from OOB to the back court, not from the front court to the back court.

The difference between NCAA and Fed. on team control on a throw-in comes into play of there's a foul on the offensive team, say an illegal screen. In NCAA, with team control on a throw-in by A1, a foul on team A results in a throw-in for B, even with the bonus in effect. In Fed., since there is no team control (yet) on a throw-in, B could still shoot the bonus.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Not really - because there wouldn't be team control in the front court. When you hand the ball to the player OOB under the basket for the throw-in, there would be team control, but because the player is OOB, he's not in the front court, or back court, for that matter. He's OOB. See what I'm getting at? It doesn't matter where along the baseline or sideline that player is, that player is not in the front court until he's in-bounds. So, while he's holding the ball OOB for the throw-in, there wouldn't be a 3-sec. count in the lane, because the ball's not in the front court. The same way, if the player throws it all the way to the back court and his teammate picks it up there, no violation. Because the ball went from OOB to the back court, not from the front court to the back court.

This might be clear to you but the NCAA did see the need to change the BC rule when the TC foul came in to cover BC on the throw-in from the front court. They also changed the 3 second rule btw.

The difference between NCAA and Fed. on team control on a throw-in comes into play of there's a foul on the offensive team, say an illegal screen. In NCAA, with team control on a throw-in by A1, a foul on team A results in a throw-in for B, even with the bonus in effect. In Fed., since there is no team control (yet) on a throw-in, B could still shoot the bonus.

I agree with Kelvin, the fed doesn't want to change too much at once. As I've already said I think the other changes will come next year IF the rule sticks, which I think it will.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
This might be clear to you but the NCAA did see the need to change the BC rule when the TC foul came in to cover BC on the throw-in from the front court. They also changed the 3 second rule btw.

Ok, I'm confused - what did they change? I always thought front court - back court had to do with players and the ball in-bounds. So, a throw-in coming from OOB doesn't have "front court status" until it is actually in the front court. Otherwise, how could a A1, standing OOB about the free throw line extended in his front court, pass the ball to A2 in the back court?

I agree with Kelvin, the fed doesn't want to change too much at once. As I've already said I think the other changes will come next year IF the rule sticks, which I think it will.

I do agree with this - I think it might take a while for refs and coaches who have never had to deal with this to get used to it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
My only comment on your possibilities, is that they are already taken care of. Your first example has the throw-in going into the backcourt. Remember, for the backcourt violation there has to be team control in the frontcourt.

True, but often misinterpreted as "a player holding or dirribling the ball in the frontcourt." That's why most (many) of us split the requirement into 1) team control and 2) ball in the front court.

If there was team control during a throw-in, and with no other rules changes, then a throw-in that bounced in the front court and was recovered by A in the back court would be a violation. So would a throw-in that deflected off A1 in the front court and was recovered by A2 in the backcourt. These are the reasons the NCAA changed the wording on backcourt violations ("does not apply during a throw-in") and the definition of when a throw-in ends ("When controlled on the court" -- instead of the FED's "when touched")

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Ok, I'm confused - what did they change?

9-5-3 and 9-9-1a.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

True, but often misinterpreted as "a player holding or dirribling the ball in the frontcourt." That's why most (many) of us split the requirement into 1) team control and 2) ball in the front court.

If there was team control during a throw-in, and with no other rules changes, then a throw-in that bounced in the front court and was recovered by A in the back court would be a violation. So would a throw-in that deflected off A1 in the front court and was recovered by A2 in the backcourt. These are the reasons the NCAA changed the wording on backcourt violations ("does not apply during a throw-in") and the definition of when a throw-in ends ("When controlled on the court" -- instead of the FED's "when touched")

Ok, that makes sense. I hadn't reconciled that possibility of the status of the ball on situation like that.

By the way, use your edit button, quick, before Mr. Spelling Guy wakes up.

[truerookie]

I am going to add a little rookie(ness) to this discussion. I have learned not to get wrapped around the axle about the rule. The rule is easier for me to grasp because I am still grasping the avocation. I do understand there cannot be any team-control on a try for goal or during a throw-in.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I would totally agree with this. I am still trying to understand the logic behind the NFHS NOT making the high school rule the same as the NCAA rule. I guess to me, it just makes sense that a player with the ball in hand, standing out of bounds, is in control, hence his/her team is in control. Perhaps a way to ask the question is, how is the team NOT in control?

[/B]

Well... probably because the NFHS rules still say so.

NFHS rule 4-12-6 sez "Neither team control or player control exists during a throw-in...".

Under NCAA rules, a team does have team control after the ball has been given to them for a throw-in.

Iow, completely different rules. No logic involved. We just gotta follow what we're given. [/B][/QUOTE]

Like JR says, it is very important to go with what the rules say, and not summary questions such as the one in red posed by rmr1119.

Why?

I just got my new rules book today, and while reading the new definition of a team-control foul, I noticed that not all player-control fouls qualify as team-control fouls.

The AIRBORNE SHOOTER is the exception.
However, the penalty is still the same (unlike NCAA men).