Elbows Rule Redux

[rainmaker]

Doggone it, I can't find the reference I want. Perhaps it's in a past year's rule book. If so, can I please call on MTD to brave his attic and find me the cite I want?

I was doing a game on Saturday (VG) and a girl threw an elbow and made contact. I suspect she was trying to make contact, but I didn't push it. I T'd her, though. I was thinking that the rule change a year or two ago was mostly for non-contact elbows, and that we could still call a T if there was contact. Was I mis-remembering?

[ChuckElias]

The change to the elbows rule is 9-13. The change basically gives you more options.

1) If it's excessive swinging with no contact, it's a violation.

2) If it's excessive swinging with no contact, but you feel the person was trying to make contact, you can give an unsporting T (or even flagrant if you feel there was intent to injure).

3) If it's excessive and there's contact, then you have a personal foul (live ball contact). It's either PC or maybe intentional/flagrant, based on the severity.

[truerookie]

Looking at section 9-13 art 1... A player shall not excessively swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent.

Penalty: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out OOB spot nearest the violation.

I think the contact will fall under unsporting foul 10-3-8.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by truerookie
I think the contact will fall under unsporting foul 10-3-8.

Rook, unsporting technical fouls are actually listed under 10-3-7.

And if you look at the definition of unsporting foul in 4-19-14, you'll see that unsporting fouls are always non-contact fouls in HS. (Different in NBA, where "Elbow Fouls" have their own category; but that's not what we're interested in. . .)

[truerookie]

Thanks! part of the learning process. Thanks again for keeping me straight.

[Camron Rust]

The phrase "even if there is no contct" is not equal to "only if there is no contact".

When there is excessive swinging that creates contact, a violation is still an option: the swinging of the elbows can make the ball dead prior to the contact.

If there is contact, you could have the option of a T if you recognize the violation, judge the ball dead, blow the whistle, then bam. Contact during a dead ball.

You could also have a personal foul if you choose not to call the violation for swinging the elbows (perhaps they were not swung that excessively) but there is still contact (live ball).

You could also have a T for an attempt to strike another player...it's the attempt that gets the T, not the contact.

There are rules to all of these options...it depends on the timing and the judegement of the official.

If there is contact, I'm coming up with some sort of foul.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
When there is excessive swinging that creates contact, a violation is still an option: the swinging of the elbows can make the ball dead prior to the contact.

You could also have a T for an attempt to strike another player...it's the attempt that gets the T, not the contact.

I'm not good enough to split those hairs. For me, contact = personal.

[truerookie]

I'm not good enough to split those hairs. For me, contact = personal.

Chuck, I am shocked,Why personal? That changes the perspective for me, I can swing my elbows and make contact all I get is a personal foul. would that fall under PC IYO? For me, swinging elbows violation making contact while swinging technical.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by truerookie
I'm not good enough to split those hairs. For me, contact = personal.

Chuck, I am shocked,Why personal? That changes the perspective for me, I can swing my elbows and make contact all I get is a personal foul. would that fall under PC IYO? For me, swinging elbows violation making contact while swinging technical.

If the player has the ball, yes, it's a PC. That's not what he's disputing. What he's saying is that it's a personal foul, not a technical foul.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by truerookie
I'm not good enough to split those hairs. For me, contact = personal.

Chuck, I am shocked,Why personal?

Sorry. Guess I should have said "For me, live ball contact = personal."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
The change to the elbows rule is 9-13. The change basically gives you more options.

1) If it's excessive swinging with no contact, it's a violation.

2) If it's excessive swinging with no contact, but you feel the person was trying to make contact, you can give an unsporting T (or even flagrant if you feel there was intent to injure).

3) If it's excessive and there's contact, then you have a personal foul (live ball contact). It's either PC or maybe intentional/flagrant, based on the severity.

Chuck:

I want to thank you for saving me a trip up the ladder to my attic. You did a wonderful job of answering Juulie's question. I would just like to add that the rule is the same for NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's.

MTD, Sr.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Doggone it, I can't find the reference I want. Perhaps it's in a past year's rule book. If so, can I please call on MTD to brave his attic and find me the cite I want?

I was doing a game on Saturday (VG) and a girl threw an elbow and made contact. I suspect she was trying to make contact, but I didn't push it. I T'd her, though. I was thinking that the rule change a year or two ago was mostly for non-contact elbows, and that we could still call a T if there was contact. Was I mis-remembering?

If it was an intentional swing of the elbow with contact, then I would have "t" her also. I dont think you could go wrong in this type of situation, unless you call nothing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by IREFU2

If it was an intentional swing of the elbow with contact, then I would have "t" her also. I dont think you could go wrong in this type of situation, unless you call nothing.

Sigh.

Do you have a rules reference that will allow you to call a technical foul for a live-ball contact foul?

By rule, for live ball contact fouls, you can call either a team control foul, an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul.

NFHS rules 4-19-1 and 4-19-5 are the references.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh.

Do you have a rules reference that will allow you to call a technical foul for a live-ball contact foul?

By rule, for live ball contact fouls, you can call either a team control foul, an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul.

NFHS rules 4-19-1 and 4-19-5 are the references.

How about Section 19-4
ART. 4 . . . A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

It could be deemed flagrant. Once again it would be a judgement called whether to call a "t" or violation. I guess you would have to be in the situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by IREFU2

How about Section 19-4
ART. 4 . . . A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

It could be deemed flagrant. Once again it would be a judgement called whether to call a "t" or violation. I guess you would have to be in the situation.

See the words outlined in red in your rules citation. Note that the rule says that if the foul is a technical, it must be dead ball contact.


You just cited a rule that completely contradicts what you're trying to assert.

Rule 4-19-5(c) sez a technical foul is an intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead. If the contact occurs during a live ball, it must be a personal foul as per R4-19-1.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 29th, 2005 at 09:42 AM]