Only in Middle School

[JRutledge]

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[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by zebraman

I just don't get Chuck's take that we would have been screwed if the white coach had known the rule.

What would you or Dan do, Z, if this exact same play came up in a college game? The NCAA rules are the same as the FED rules...i.e. once the throw-in ends, by rule you can't fix your error. If you knew that your call was gonna be reviewed by a league evaluator, and this call came up at a time in the game where it possibly could affect who won the game, do you still stop play and re-do the AP? Adjust the game clock too?

Just wondering.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by zebraman
I think I could reply to a lot of posts on this board with, "well, I would have done it exactly right the first time instead." Not sure that helps anyone though and it really does come off as holier-than-thou.

As I said, Z, I'm not trying to come off as better than anybody. We've been on this forum for a long time, and you and I have never butted heads. So hopefully you know that I'm not just talking trash. Let me try to say things in a different way.

You knew who was getting the ball. You were the one who give the initial direction signal after the held ball. When I'm in that situation, I have a little mental dialogue going while I'm counting players. White ball, then switch the arrow. White ball, then switch the arrow. If we're being efficient during the dead ball, this situation is easier to prevent. That's all I was trying to say.

And as I did say, I would rather be a little too quick on the whistle in this sitch and be wrong, then be too slow and have to "fix" it by ignoring the rules.

I just don't get Chuck's take that we would have been screwed if the white coach had known the rule.

I don't get how you don't get it.

It just seems to me that if the coach knows the rule and wants to make an issue of it (and he will make an issue of it), he's in the right and you will have 2 choices. 1) Admit that he's right and that you screwed up the original situation and that you screwed up the "solution"; or 2) Tell him that he's wrong -- which is not going to go over well, b/c he knows he's right -- and end up T'ing him.

Here's what I've heard at camps. An assignor can back you to the hilt on your judgment. But nobody can back you up if you misapply the rules. Officials rarely get disciplined for judgment calls. When officials get disciplined, it's b/c they clearly missed something that affected the game (6 men on the court) or b/c they misapplied a rule.

"Coach, I recognized it before the throw-in was complete but I hesitated due to my inherent insecurity." End of story.

Unless the coach knows the rule. Then it's not the end of story b/c he knows that "once the ball is touched, you can't give it back!" And "you just stole a possession from our team". And "yeah, it was a mistake, but that's not really my problem, is it? It's our ball!!" And on and on he'll go.

How screwed would we have been had I let the play go on and then told the white coach, "Well sure coach, I recognized it before the pass was thrown, but by rule I'm not allowed to fix it once the ball is touched inbounds?"

I honestly don't know. But at least when he called your assignor, your assignor could say to him that you were right.

I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight. But it just seems to me that you can never get in trouble by applying the rules correctly. As always, JMO.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

What would you or Dan do, Z, if this exact same play came up in a college game? The NCAA rules are the same as the FED rules...i.e. once the throw-in ends, by rule you can't fix your error. If you knew that your call was gonna be reviewed by a league evaluator, and this call came up at a time in the game where it possibly could affect who won the game, do you still stop play and re-do the AP? Adjust the game clock too?

Just wondering.

Life is somewhat easier if I don't worry about what an evaluator might or might not say to me later while I'm trying to "unscrew the pooch" right now, so that's not a real concern for me at that moment. Now, the entire crew having f'ed this up royally beyond any possible recognition the only possible thing left to do is figure out how to minimze the impact. And it seems to me, sitting here, the least impact is if we just fix it. Including the clock.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Here's what I've heard at camps. An assignor can back you to the hilt on your judgment. But nobody can back you up if you misapply the rules. Officials rarely get disciplined for judgment calls. When officials get disciplined, it's b/c they clearly missed something that affected the game (6 men on the court) or b/c they misapplied a rule.

Fair enough, but I've also heard that "the most important thing is that we get the call right" about a million times. I don't worry about any second-guessing an evaluator might do after the game, my number one priority is creating an even playing field for the athletes and coaches. Even if it came down to rules, I have no problem with the fact that I recognized before the throw-in was complete and my whistle didn't sound until after a touch. I'm always working on a more patient whistle anyway. I'm generally a rules guy, but IMHO, this situation calls for common sense over a black-and-white rules interp.

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/b]

An assignor can back you to the hilt on your judgment. But nobody can back you up if you misapply the rules. Officials rarely get disciplined for judgment calls. When officials get disciplined, it's b/c they clearly missed something that affected the game (6 men on the court) or b/c they misapplied a rule.

But it just seems to me that you can never get in trouble by applying the rules correctly. [/B][/QUOTE]Yup. What might be the "right" thing to do in a middle school or JV game can be the "wrong" thing to do at a higher level.

Jmo too.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

An assignor can back you to the hilt on your judgment. But nobody can back you up if you misapply the rules. Officials rarely get disciplined for judgment calls. When officials get disciplined, it's b/c they clearly missed something that affected the game (6 men on the court) or b/c they misapplied a rule.

But it just seems to me that you can never get in trouble by applying the rules correctly. [/B]

Yup. What might be the "right" thing to do in a middle school or JV game can be the "wrong" thing to do at a higher level.
[/B][/QUOTE]

You might be right. Mabe 1 day I'll get a chance to work some 7th grade games to find out! :grin:

[Nevadaref]

Let's see dumba$$ partner gives the ball to the wrong team for a throw-in. Dumba$$ me doesn't notice until it has been touched inbounds. Tweet, now the game is stopped.
Pain the a$$ coach knows the rule and insists that his team still keeps possession even though the officials hosed the opponent.
Here's a tempting solution.
Ref: You're right, coach. We messed up, but it's too late to fix it. It's still your ball.
Put ball in going the same way. Team crosses halfcourt. A couple of seconds later...
Ref: Tweet. Three seconds.
Coach: Ah, come on, what is that? He was barely even in there.
Ref: Yeah, coach, you have a point. Perhaps we can both stop being so picky about the rules for the rest of this game.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Let's see dumba$$ partner gives the ball to the wrong team for a throw-in. Dumba$$ me doesn't notice until it has been touched inbounds. Tweet, now the game is stopped.
Pain the a$$ coach knows the rule and insists that his team still keeps possession even though the officials hosed the opponent.
Here's a tempting solution.
Ref: You're right, coach. We messed up, but it's too late to fix it. It's still your ball.
Put ball in going the same way. Team crosses halfcourt. A couple of seconds later...
Ref: Tweet. Three seconds.
Coach: Ah, come on, what is that? He was barely even in there.
Ref: Yeah, coach, you have a point. Perhaps we can both stop being so picky about the rules for the rest of this game.

Sounds like a solution to me.
Hey Rut, pass the popcorn.

[JRutledge]

Peace