Using the "H" word

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by tomegun
Rut, I, like many others, do not care what you think either. I'm personally just tired of you always spewing negativity about one subject or another and then using that "well you can't do that where I live" bogus line. It's basketball!

I did not start either post or try to make an issue out of this. I just commented on it.

Originally posted by tomegun
It you are so learned in African-American matters, you are a prime example of the fact that book sense does not equate to common sense. It is obvious to me that other members on this board with "life experience" have a better feel for the importance of certain racial than you do without thinking one technical foul in a basketball game is not going to change the world. Sure, it will not change the world, but it will address at least that one instance of what has ignorantly became common verbage. Surely, I hope that your father would feel similar.

Once again Tommy, giving a technical foul in a game is not going to solve all the social ills in this country. It is not going to stop the way people talk and the way it is received. Like I said before, if a technical foul is your only way of handling this situation then give a technical foul. Dude, we do not even officiate in the same places, why would I care if that is what you do?

Originally posted by tomegun
I thank the man upstairs for the way I was raised. I know in my heart that I'm not a racist and you helped me prove it again to myself. I dislike ignorance no matter what color it comes in. I hope you don't answer me because I'm going to pray that I won't have anything else to say to you.

Well Tommy our only contact is on the internet. You do not have to ever read another thread I make. I also feel that it is ignorant if you think no one out here thinks different than you. Not sure how it is negative to talk about issues like this and to share different points of view. I guess it is bad to talk about anything that might shed some light on why people feel the way they do.

As I said before, you obviously do not listen to popular music much or pay close attention to popular culture. The "N" word is used all the time in ways that I find very unacceptable and inappropriate. I just do not feel giving an "automatic" T is going to change any of that. I feel working within communities with these kids directly will do more whether that is thru education or just being a role model. I pray to God that you understand that everyone does not come from your level of understanding or you opinion on this issue. I also find it objectionable that you have tried to paint my point of view on this as an "acceptance" of this word or the usage of the word. Not only is that very ignorant of you and completely a wrong characterization of my opinion on this and many issues.

I feel very strongly that you are taking this personally when all we are sharing is opinions and ways to handle this. No matter what issue we talk about there is no black and white here. Even in my job there are many grey areas on what to do and what is right. Not every situation is spelled out clearly and the way to do things have one avenue. I maybe your background has made you incapable to see that things outside of a narrow view.

Peace

[azbigdawg]

I dont always agree with what Rutledge has to say, and I rarely post here, but I honestly think that some of you automatically turn him off whenever he speaks, and that is a mistake. I honestly think he is right about this one..You do HAVE to consider WHERE you are when you take action on this.... I've heard the "N" word used both affectionately and in hatred. (seriously) If the word is used between two opposing teams, I PROBABLY have a whistle. If its used by members of the same team who are talking to each other....that IS a different thing. This is not gonna make some of you happy, but YOUR individual standards are mostly irrelevant to the decsion as to whether to whistle or not. You SHOULD be considering the context in which the word is used. Im not saying that you relax all your standards of behavior on the court, but you do need to consider whats going on. Rutledge was correct in his comments about today's music and television. Try not to bash the messenger for the message.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by azbigdawg
This is not gonna make some of you happy, but YOUR individual standards are mostly irrelevant to the decision as to whether to whistle or not.

Are you kidding?

You're telling me that my, and every other person who posts here's, individual standards are irrelevant and your and J.Rutledges' individual standards are relevant?

That might just rank as the most unbelievable and presumptious comment that I have ever read on this board. In my opinion, it is also complete and unadulterated bullsh!t too.

You have the right to your opinion and your individual standards. J.Rutledge has the right to his opinion and his individual standards. Neither of you, or me, or anybody else for that matter, has the right to tell anybody what their opinions or individual standards should be.

Un-freaking-believable!!

[azbigdawg]

believe it..as you can see by the responses in this post...everyone has their own OPINION in this matter....sometimes you have to put your OPINION aside and officiate THEIR game...

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by azbigdawg
believe it..as you can see by the responses in this post...everyone has their own OPINION in this matter....sometimes you have to put your OPINION aside and officiate THEIR game...

I'm not as pissed off as JR about this comment; I just don't get it.

Daryl, if everybody has an opinion, and everybody's opinion is "mostly irrelevant" to whether or not we should blow the whistle, then what's the basis for judging whether racially-tinged phrases are unsporting?

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by JRutledge

It is very clear to me that there are many here have never talked to teenagers outside of officiating or do not listen to any music, watch video games or watch MTV or watch a TV show geared towards teens and young adults. If you did, you would not be surprised.

Peace

I have a 15 year old daughter who plays volleyball and basketball. We have opened up our house and almost always have additional kids over (both boys and girls). It's not a party house but they come hang out (music, eat, shoot baskets, eat, throw a football, eat, play video games, eat, watch movies, eat, play games and sometimes eat) I prefer it this way so I have a better idea of what's going on. There are kids from 4 races that come over on a regular basis. I talked to some of them last night and to a T, none of them talk this way unless they want to fight. Shrug

Although, as I said before, on the basketball court you have kids from different backgrounds, standards, upbringing and with some, maybe language like this is more common. I think you need to look at the situation and do what you feel is best. I don't want to be the damn ref that T's a kid instantly unless he deserves it. Maybe I can help him out and just maybe he'll carry that with him for the future. I certainly don't think I can change the course of someones life with a T or a 10 word conversation but sometimes things like this help build their character.

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Sep 16th, 2005 at 10:14 AM]

[JRutledge]

Why does every person want to make this issue about me and what I say?

I am just one person. I am also not the only person that does not give Ts for this word automatically. I went for years and did not have to really face this issue because I worked in all white school games. I was lucky in some cases if a single Black player showed up when I was officiating anything. I am revealing what I do and what many other officials (that are my color) handle the situation. I was conflicted when I first heard the words and did not know what exactly to do. So I asked around and found that the veterans did not take this "automatic" stance that most here are suggesting and handled it similar to the way I have decided to.

I will say this again, if you feel that a T is the way to handle this situation, not only do you have that right, but the rules do not specifically say what is considered "racially insensitive" or what is "inappropriate." That judgment comes from us, not the rules. People use different speech patterns based on where they live and where they are from. I have spent some time down south over the years and heard slang terms that no one used where I was from. I have some close friends from East St. Louis area and they talk different that folks from Chicago that are of the same race. Not all of these words are obvious words that we all would identify as "inappropriate."

Peace

[Stripes33]

I'm with Rut on this this one.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by azbigdawg
believe it..as you can see by the responses in this post...everyone has their own OPINION in this matter....sometimes you have to put your OPINION aside and officiate THEIR game...

Whointhehell are you to tell anybody that they have to put their opinions aside and use your opinion?

Am I missing something here? Did you get appointed God while I was out this morning?

May I respectfully suggest that you speak for yourself, only yourself, and not for any other person in the whole damn world.

There have been opinions given out in this thread that I personally don't agree with, but I would never have the unmitigated gall to tell anybody that they didn't have the right to have that opinion.

Lah freaking me!



[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 16th, 2005 at 12:47 PM]

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by JRutledge

It is very clear to me that there are many here have never talked to teenagers outside of officiating or do not listen to any music, watch video games or watch MTV or watch a TV show geared towards teens and young adults. If you did, you would not be surprised.

Peace

Sorry, but kids in my neighborhood do not use these expressions. On the other hand, "nigga" is a term of endearment in these parts (much to my chagrin), much they way "foo'" is a term of endearment in East LA.

I'm around kids all the time, but there aren't too many white kids in my neighborhood, mostly Hispanic and Asian kids.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I will say this again, if you feel that a T is the way to handle this situation, not only do you have that right, but the rules do not specifically say what is considered "racially insensitive" or what is "inappropriate." That judgment comes from us, not the rules.

And if you don't feel that a T is the way to handle this situation, then you also have that right to do so. The judgement to not call a T also comes from that person and not the rules. Whether anybody agrees or not with any other person's "opinion" does not change this either.

The right of each person to make his own personal judgement is sacrosanct, arizbigdawg.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I'm not as pissed off as JR about this comment; I just don't get it.

Daryl, if everybody has an opinion, and everybody's opinion is "mostly irrelevant" to whether or not we should blow the whistle, then what's the basis for judging whether racially-tinged phrases are unsporting?

And why would someone ask a question on a forum unless he or she wanted opinions?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
And if you don't feel that a T is the way to handle this situation, then you also have that right to do so. The judgement to not call a T also comes from that person and not the rules. Whether anybody agrees or not with any other person's "opinion" does not change this either.

The right of each person to make his own personal judgement is sacrosanct, arizbigdawg.

JR, the words "inappropriate language" is a broad statement. Even what is considered "racially insensitive," is a broad statement. What might be considered insensitive or inappropriate can very from religion, class or education level. There are people that think it is not PC to refer to African-Americans as "Black."

I remember someone suggesting they would T someone for saying "God damnit," (or something of that nature) and there were many opinions on this issue. Now not sure where you are from, but that is considered "inappropriate" to some people and others do not have a problem with it the Lord's name being used in vein. I do not see the rules making a distinction specifically in any interpretation or casebook play that says any specific language is inappropriate. I am going to assume that the NF was purposely vague in order to allow areas to set their own standards and enforce or interpret these rules as they see fit. I realize the "N" word has history and is an obvious example, but there are other words that do not have the same history and mean the same thing. I have never seen any posts with multiple pages about those words. It is obvious that what someone thinks is "inappropriate" varies from place to place.

Even in my state some interpretations were given to accommodate different religious expressions that were completely outside of the NF rules. So this is always going to be a local and personal issue. And when

The bottom line is we are not going to change each other's mind on this. We do not have to answer to the same people if this takes place on either of our games. We do not even live in the same state or city. So this is all interesting for discussion purposes, it just is a very small blip on the computer screen as it relates to officiating. Most officials I know never will know this conversation took place and they will do exactly what they did before. Just like the people you know that never come here will do the same.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The bottom line is we are not going to change each other's mind on this.

This really didn't have anything at all to do with me trying to change your's or anybody else's mind. I didn't post towards that end. This has to do with the right of each individual in this discussion to have their own opinion. Maybe I don't agree with your particular opinion. Big whoop! I do think that there is nowayinhell that you or anyone else should ever be not allowed to form, have or give out their own opinions though. I resent very much arizbigdawg or anybody else telling me, you or anybody else on this forum that they have to put aside their personal opinions and agree with his personal opinion.

That's where I'm coming from in this part of the discussion.

[JRutledge]

This place is about opinions and nothing else for the most part. Unless you have a rule or interpretation, all we ever talk about is opinions. Even in those discussions about rules or interpretations we give out opinion. I am not sure what we all expect from each other.

Peace