A1 initiates contact

[ChrisSportsFan]

2 situations to discuss:

#1- Man to man pressure so coach has everyone clearout. A1 is able to beat B1 til just past midcourt when B1 catches A1 and is about to pass him. A1 intentionally changes his course and gets into B1's path. B1 is making an effort to avoid contact but A1 (who has maintained his dribble) continues to initiate contact. He's clearly hoping to draw the foul. The book talks about the player from behind is responsible for the contact but I don't know that this is what they are describing. Please explain your call or no-call.

#2- A1 has a breakaway layup with B1 just off his shoulder. Right before A1 gets to the rim he slows just a bit and then jumps into B1's path clearly hoping to draw contact. By defination, B1 never obtained LGP but he also did not initiate the contact. Please explain your call or no-call.

[Ref in PA]

First I disagree that B1 does not have LGP. There is a simple definition of legal guarding position 4-23-2. All you need is two feet on the floor and be facing the opponent. Your LPG may not be very good (as far as defending the basket), but you still got it.

LPG is important for judging contact. The key to judging the contact is in 4-23-3-c. This basically says the defender cannot be moving toward the opponent when the contact occurs. You judge this contact not in relation to where the basket is, but in relation to the movement of the two players involved. If you deem A1 moves into B1, then the foul is on A1 and vice versa.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
2 situations to discuss:

#1- Man to man pressure so coach has everyone clearout. A1 is able to beat B1 til just past midcourt when B1 catches A1 and is about to pass him. A1 intentionally changes his course and gets into B1's path. B1 is making an effort to avoid contact but A1 (who has maintained his dribble) continues to initiate contact. He's clearly hoping to draw the foul. The book talks about the player from behind is responsible for the contact but I don't know that this is what they are describing. Please explain your call or no-call.

#2- A1 has a breakaway layup with B1 just off his shoulder. Right before A1 gets to the rim he slows just a bit and then jumps into B1's path clearly hoping to draw contact. By defination, B1 never obtained LGP but he also did not initiate the contact. Please explain your call or no-call.

Case book play 10.6.2SitB-COMMENT--"Screening principles apply to the dribbler who attempts to cut off an opponent who is approaching in a different path from the rear. In this case, the dribbler must allow such an opponent a maximum of two steps or an opportunity to stop or avoid contact. When both the dribbler and opponent are moving in in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible for contact which results if the player in front slows down or stops".

1) If A1 jumped into B1's path, he has to give B1 time and distance as per the case book play.
2) Same as #1.

[refTN]

Chris congrats on the 1,000th post.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by refTN
Chris congrats on the 1,000th post.

7 times that congrats to JR.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

7 times that congrats to JR.

Do I get a prize for being yappy? 1000 posts of quality for you,Chris vs 6000 posts of a picture of a squirrel with his nuts hanging out for me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 14th, 2005 at 02:32 PM]

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Do I get a prize for being yappy? 1000 posts of quality for you,Chris vs 6000 posts of a picture of a squirrel with his nuts hanging out for me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 14th, 2005 at 02:32 PM]

Huh? Squirrel? All along I thought that was an actual picture of Chuck...

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
First I disagree that B1 does not have LGP. There is a simple definition of legal guarding position 4-23-2. All you need is two feet on the floor and be facing the opponent. Your LPG may not be very good (as far as defending the basket), but you still got it.

LPG is important for judging contact. The key to judging the contact is in 4-23-3-c. This basically says the defender cannot be moving toward the opponent when the contact occurs. You judge this contact not in relation to where the basket is, but in relation to the movement of the two players involved. If you deem A1 moves into B1, then the foul is on A1 and vice versa.

You left out one important part of LGP....being in the path of the opponent. If B1 is roughly following A1, B1 does not have LGP. It still might be a foul on A1 for not allowing time/distance in setting a screen but it's not about LGP.

[Ref in PA]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

You left out one important part of LGP....being in the path of the opponent. If B1 is roughly following A1, B1 does not have LGP. It still might be a foul on A1 for not allowing time/distance in setting a screen but it's not about LGP.

I agree. But at the same time I wanted to point out (and did not do a good job of it) that LGP is for certain directions an offensive player may opt to go. For example, A1 is at the top of the key holding the ball. B1 in inbetween A1 and the basket facing A1. B1 has LGP for A1's path to the basket, but not for a retreat to the division line or a path to either sideline. Lets say A1 dribbles sideways to the sideline and B1 sidles with A1, staying inbetween the basket and A1. Most refs will say that B1 is guarding A1 and still has LGP when in fact B1 has never got into the actual path of A1. Therefore, I did not cite the criteria of getting in the path of A1. At some point, based on the positioning of A1 and B1 and the paths they have chosen, LGP could be established (according to rule book definition) will come into play unless B1 runs over A1 from behind. If the foul is on A1, LGP was established momentarily before the contact, if the foul was on B1, then LGP was lost or never obtained prior to contact.

I think we would be in agreement on the call, just that I describe and view things a little different.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
[/B]

At some point, based on the positioning of A1 and B1 and the paths they have chosen, LGP could be established (according to rule book definition) will come into play unless B1 runs over A1 from behind. If the foul is on A1, LGP was established momentarily before the contact, if the foul was on B1, then LGP was lost or never obtained prior to contact.

[/B][/QUOTE]Do those blanket criteria hold even if the dribbler pushes off with an arm?

[Ref in PA]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

At some point, based on the positioning of A1 and B1 and the paths they have chosen, LGP could be established (according to rule book definition) will come into play unless B1 runs over A1 from behind. If the foul is on A1, LGP was established momentarily before the contact, if the foul was on B1, then LGP was lost or never obtained prior to contact.

[/B]

Do those blanket criteria hold even if the dribbler pushes off with an arm? [/B][/QUOTE]

I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but I will attempt to answer.

In my mind (or what is left in it) the guarding position is important for determining block/charge contact. I think we can agree that a push from the arm of A1 while dribbling will be a foul on A1. B1 does not have to have LGP to receive a push from A1 - they could be moving in parallel paths.

Maybe what you are asking is "What if B1 does not have LGP and is blocking A1 and A1 pushes B1 with his off arm at the same time. If that happens, you have a double foul. However, here is my general disclaimer - you have to see the play and determine which foul happened first or if they happened at the same time or if the contact was incidental.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Ref in PA

Do those blanket criteria hold even if the dribbler pushes off with an arm? [/B]

I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but I will attempt to answer.

In my mind (or what is left in it) the guarding position is important for determining block/charge contact. I think we can agree that a push from the arm of A1 while dribbling will be a foul on A1. B1 does not have to have LGP to receive a push from A1 - they could be moving in parallel paths.

Maybe what you are asking is "What if B1 does not have LGP and is blocking A1 and A1 pushes B1 with his off arm at the same time. If that happens, you have a double foul. However, here is my general disclaimer - you have to see the play and determine which foul happened first or if they happened at the same time or if the contact was incidental.

[/B][/QUOTE]What I'm getting at is that LGP applies in some case but not in all cases. There doesn't have to be LGP involved at all to determine block/charge in the scenarios we're talking about. That's why that case book play that I cited said "screening principles apply...", not "guarding principles apply...". You said above that LGP "will come into play". I think that probably should read "may come into play".

[ChrisSportsFan]

In both of the situations I described, B1 has not established LGP. I'm looking to see if you would:
A- call the foul on B1 and reward A1 even though he initiated contact.
B- call the foul on A1 since he initiated contact.
C- no-call the foul and how would your explain you pass.

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Sep 15th, 2005 at 12:40 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
In both of the situations I described, B1 has not established LGP. I'm looking to see if you would:
A- call the foul on B1 and reward A1 even though he initiated contact.
B- call the foul on A1 since hee initiated contact.
C- no-call the foul and how would you explain you pass.

Just for the record, I still stand by my original post. Use screening principles as outlined in the case book play that I cited above to make the call.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
In both of the situations I described, B1 has not established LGP. I'm looking to see if you would:
A- call the foul on B1 and reward A1 even though he initiated contact.
B- call the foul on A1 since hee initiated contact.
C- no-call the foul and how would you explain you pass.

C. A1 took his own advantage away by creating the contact. B1's actions did not create a disadvantage for A1 nor an advantage for B1.