who gets a T...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JohnBark
well, i guess a team warning would be ok. but, what happens if it happened again later in the game. and once again, you aren't sure who said it. that's my only sticking point. i certainly won't penalize a player for something i'm not sure he/she did. that was the whole point to the original post. if you hear the "f-bomb" from the team huddle during a TO, who do you penalize? that type of language is not called for. and i believe after reading all the post, that a TEAM T under 10-1-8 would be the appropriate ruling. you can't penalize a player, because you don't know who said it. and you can't directly penalize the coach either, because he didn't say it. but, i bet by issuing a TEAM T, that language will no longer occur during that game.

John, the problem with warning a team is that now you're giving the other team a free shot at doing the exact same thing. It sure isn't fair to warn one team and then nail the other one without giving them a similar warning.

There was no doubt that the actual "act" did occur-- you heard it and you absolutely knew for sure what team it came from too. That team sure can't complain that they're getting penalized for nuthin'. There also is no reason for them to stop throwing F-shots around in the future if they know that all they're gonna hear from an official is "please don't do that again".

Btw, I also can't believe that assignors or AD's or league administrators anywhere won't back you up if you do call that "T" either.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by JohnBark
well, i guess a team warning would be ok. but, what happens if it happened again later in the game. and once again, you aren't sure who said it.

What would you do in other situations where there was a possible foul and you did not see it? Would you make it up? Would you call a foul if you were not sure if there was a foul in the first place? I would hope you would not call something you were not sure of in those cases. I would hope you used the same kind of judgment in this situation.

Originally posted by JohnBark
that's my only sticking point. i certainly won't penalize a player for something i'm not sure he/she did. that was the whole point to the original post. if you hear the "f-bomb" from the team huddle during a TO, who do you penalize? that type of language is not called for.

First of all I am not near the huddle to hear much of what is said. Secondly, if you did not hear something, then you need to pay attention the next time to catch the person that is using that language if it matters that much to you. At least from my experience I hear more from the fans than what is said in a team huddle during timeouts. Or I am talking with my partners in those situations and I have no idea what is said by anyone. If calling a T is just like any other call, then you have to put yourself in a better position to make a call the next time. To penalize players and coaches based on a guess it to me just plain wrong in my opinion.

Originally posted by JohnBark
and i believe after reading all the post, that a TEAM T under 10-1-8 would be the appropriate ruling. you can't penalize a player, because you don't know who said it. and you can't directly penalize the coach either, because he didn't say it. but, i bet by issuing a TEAM T, that language will no longer occur during that game.

The great thing about this forum is you can do whatever you like and draw any conclusion you can think of. I think what you suggest might cause more confusion and more animosity than solving whether someone uses language. I have seen a lot of times in small gyms where fans say things and you might not realize who is actually talking. To penalize a team for something they might not even have said is just plain wrong as I stated before. I also do not care about, "free shots." I have always felt that our job as officials is to call obvious actions and not go looking for something to call. If they used language and I did not hear it, I am not going to worry too much about what I missed. It is not uncommon for in certain confrontation situations for the officials to see the second action or the retaliation, so players should act as if they are being watched and if they are penalized, that is their problem. I am not going to catch every single foul and violation when the play is going on, why should I expect that I am not going to hear every word in a huddle during a timeout?

Peace

[Stat-Man]

I'm assuming the discussion here is for NFHS because the 2004 NCAA Rule book has this case play for Rule 10-9-1:

AR11: The official is advancing up the playing court to cover the play and as the official passes Team A's bench with his or her back to it, someone on the bench uses uncomplimentary language. The official is certain which bench the uncomplimentary language came from but not from which party.

RULING: when the official cannot, with assurance, determine the violator, the official shall charge the direct technical foul to the head coach. The official alone shall decide to whom a direct technical foul shall be charged. It is not the prerogative of the coach or other bench personnel to come forward as the party guilty of unsporting bench decorum.

At least for NCAA, if you don't know who said it, you whack the coach, and let one ticked-off coach throttle the bench personnel who caused his or her T.

[Edited by Stat-Man on Sep 11th, 2005 at 01:03 PM]

[JohnBark]

i never said i would penalize a player just b/c i heard the f-bomb come from a huddle without hearing and seeing who said it. i just wanted to know what the correct course of action would an official take.

and during a :60 TO, i'm on the block like everyone else. so, this was only a hypothecial situation.

and based off of these posts, i know what i would do if this situation occurs.

thanks for everyone's imput.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by JohnBark
i never said i would penalize a player just b/c i heard the f-bomb come from a huddle without hearing and seeing who said it. i just wanted to know what the correct course of action would an official take.

and during a :60 TO, i'm on the block like everyone else. so, this was only a hypothecial situation.

and based off of these posts, i know what i would do if this situation occurs.

thanks for everyone's imput.

Not only am I on the block, I will not be paying close attention to what they are doing in the team huddle. I understand this is a hypothetical, but it is something I am not going to worry about. As I stated if I hear words that might be profanity, I will do just like I do in football, "knock off the language guys." If a coach gets upset, "Coach I would do the same for you." End of story.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, you certainly can charge a team "T" for unsporting conduct under 10-1-8. Unlike other posters, I won't ignore that type of language either. It's got absolutely no place in high school sports imo. If all officials would grow some balls and stop letting players get away with this junk, then it might not be as prevalent as it has seemed to become. If we all start calling it, then maybe the coaches will think about dealing with it. You sureashell knew what team was responsible for the F-shots in this case ;go ahead and make them be responsible.

Again jmo.

You aren't ignoring it if you don't know who said it. It could be someone on the row behind the bench. Why would you penalize a team when you have no definite knowledge that someone on the team did anything wrong. If someone from the bench yells for a timeout, do you grant it without knowing or seeing who yelled? There's no difference in the two situations.


If you're going to throw a T in this situation, you'd better be 200% sure it came from a team member.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Sep 11th, 2005 at 02:36 PM]

[JohnBark]

my original post said it all. nothing was said about a fan or anything other than, you heard it come from the huddle and didn't know which player or coach tell it. so, don't muck up the original post which said the profanity came from the huddle and you weren't sure who said it. it didn't say the profanity came from the "area" of the bench or huddle, but from the huddle itself.

i started this post after reading the 2004-05 POEs 4c.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JohnBark
my original post said it all. nothing was said about a fan or anything other than, you heard it come from the huddle and didn't know which player or coach tell it. so, don't muck up the original post which said the profanity came from the huddle and you weren't sure who said it. it didn't say the profanity came from the "area" of the bench or huddle, but from the huddle itself.

i started this post after reading the 2004-05 POEs 4c.

John,I was reading your initial post the same way-- that you were absolutely sure that the profanity came from a member of the team's bench and not from a fan. My replies were based on that assumption. I do agree with the others that you shouldn't call anything if you have any doubts at all that it might not have come from that team, but if you are sure, then it is still my opinion that it shouldn't be ignored.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JohnBark
my original post said it all.

I'm not reading too much into anything. You posted the same question on the NFHS site. You wrote, "however, i don't know or see who said it."

IF YOU DON"T KNOW WHO SAID IT, YOU'D BETTER NOT CALL THE T.

[JohnBark]

and i would call something i didn't see.

thanks!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by JohnBark

i started this post after reading the 2004-05 POEs 4c.

2004-05 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

4. Specific unsporting acts. The committee is concerned about the following specific unsporting acts. Coaches, players and officials must pay particular attention to these areas:
...
C. Inappropriate language. The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. Each group has a responsibility to the game and to each other to demonstrate civility and citizenship.

The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches' bad language. Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse. Officials are not exempt either. Inappropriate references to players or coaches are not acceptable. Game administrators must also pay particular attention to fans. A game ticket is not a license to abuse.

Originally posted by JRutledge
Not only am I on the block, I will not be paying close attention to what they are doing in the team huddle. I understand this is a hypothetical, but it is something I am not going to worry about. As I stated if I hear words that might be profanity, I will do just like I do in football, "knock off the language guys." If a coach gets upset, "Coach I would do the same for you." End of story.

Peace

John,
I highly recommend that you listen to Jurassic Referee on this one. He is telling you to do what the NFHS wants done and what is in the rules.
Please notice that his main opposition on this is advocating the exact opposite of what is written in the 2004-05 POE. Why some guys refuse to help in the NFHS committee's quest for sportsmanship in HS sports, I will never understand, but I hope that you won't be one of them.

The POE tells you to penalize this for a very good reason; so DO IT.

[JRutledge]

Nevada,

What I am saying is not only what the NF suggests, but not what the POE was all about. The POE just says that players are not immune to the penalties when they are in the huddle. I think it is safe to assume that the NF would expect us to know who used the language and not just penalize someone when we are completely unclear.

Also it does not matter what I say or what JR says. You better listen to the people that hire you and what they think. Even the NF is not going to save you when you have to explain your reasoning to the assignor or state administrators. It is not JR that is going to save you when you have to T a coach again because you "assumed" someone from their huddle used language. When the fall out happens, it will not be anyone here you can get you out of trouble. No one here is going to take games away from you if we feel you are wrong.

One of the reasons the NF puts us on the block is to stay away from the possibility of overhearing comments and possible confrontation with players and coaches. I know when I have worked games in loud gyms. It is very difficult to make out what is said in the huddle when I am on the block away from the benches. Technical Fouls are very serious infractions. You better be sure who did what and when if you want to maintain credibility in your decision.

I have said this a hundred times and I will say it once again. This is just a discussion board. There is no one here that can make you do anything. If you feel the rule supports your action, go right ahead and call it. I just think in the issues of common sense at the very least know who used inappropriate language. There are a lot of things in the rulebook and we should use the spirit of the rules and not the letter of the rules to govern our actions. The POE does not say to penalize anyone you cannot identify. The POE only says to penalize players and bench personnel that use inappropriate language. It says nothing about taking action just because you "thought" you heard something. I hear a lot of bad language and much of it comes from the stands. I am just saying be sure, do not guess.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Nevada,

What I am saying is not only what the NF suggests, but not what the POE was all about. The POE just says that players are not immune to the penalties when they are in the huddle. I think it is safe to assume that the NF would expect us to know who used the language and not just penalize someone when we are completely unclear.

Also it does not matter what I say or what JR says. You better listen to the people that hire you and what they think. Even the NF is not going to save you when you have to explain your reasoning to the assignor or state administrators. It is not JR that is going to save you when you have to T a coach again because you "assumed" someone from their huddle used language. When the fall out happens, it will not be anyone here you can get you out of trouble. No one here is going to take games away from you if we feel you are wrong.

One of the reasons the NF puts us on the block is to stay away from the possibility of overhearing comments and possible confrontation with players and coaches. I know when I have worked games in loud gyms. It is very difficult to make out what is said in the huddle when I am on the block away from the benches. Technical Fouls are very serious infractions. You better be sure who did what and when if you want to maintain credibility in your decision.

I have said this a hundred times and I will say it once again. This is just a discussion board. There is no one here that can make you do anything. If you feel the rule supports your action, go right ahead and call it. I just think in the issues of common sense at the very least know who used inappropriate language. There are a lot of things in the rulebook and we should use the spirit of the rules and not the letter of the rules to govern our actions. The POE does not say to penalize anyone you cannot identify. The POE only says to penalize players and bench personnel that use inappropriate language. It says nothing about taking action just because you "thought" you heard something. I hear a lot of bad language and much of it comes from the stands. I am just saying be sure, do not guess.

Peace

Rut,
That's one of the best posts I've ever seen from you. It's well-written, conveys an intelligent message, and clearly makes its point.

However, what you just wrote seems to be quite different from the material that I disagree with, which appears in your earlier posts in this thread. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I figured that sportsmanship was pretty much a universal concept. Maybe the HS sports environment is vastly different there than it is in my area. You'll have to help clarify a couple of things for me about your area.

1. You stated that you "will not be paying close attention to what they are doing in the team huddle" and that profanity in the huddle during a TO is "something I am not going to worry about." This is in direct conflict with the NFHS's directive in the POE for officials to "pay particular attention" to this.
Question A: Do you do this on your own as a personal choice or because those you assign you to games in your area don't want you to follow what the NFHS says on this?
Question B: Would you lose games for enforcing the NFHS POE on unsporting acts and calling the technical fouls?

2. Hypothetical: You are standing on the block during a TO and the team has moved its huddle well out onto the court near the FT lane line closest to the bench. In short, they are near the edge of the bench area defined by 1-13-3. They are certainly permitted to be out there by 5-12-5, so you can't direct them to move elsewhere, but their placement puts them quite near you.
Question A: Would you move away from your position on the block in order to maintain some distance from the team huddle, since you believe, "One of the reasons the NF puts us on the block is to stay away from the possibility of overhearing comments and possible confrontation with players and coaches."?

Now someone in this huddle uses profanity. Since there is no one else near the huddle, as they are out there in the middle of the floor by themselves, you are sure that it came from this team, but you don't know which specific individual said it.

Question B: What action would you take? Ignore it, warn the coach, tell them to "knock off the language guys", or charge a technical foul.

Sharing your answers to the above will certainly help me to understand how you and/or your area handles this unsporting language issue and more importantly the rationale behind why that method is used. Thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Rut,
That's one of the best posts I've ever seen from you. It's well-written, conveys an intelligent message, and clearly makes its point.

However, what you just wrote seems to be quite different from the material that I disagree with, which appears in your earlier posts in this thread. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I figured that sportsmanship was pretty much a universal concept. Maybe the HS sports environment is vastly different there than it is in my area. You'll have to help clarify a couple of things for me about your area.

1. You stated that you "will not be paying close attention to what they are doing in the team huddle" and that profanity in the huddle during a TO is "something I am not going to worry about." This is in direct conflict with the NFHS's directive in the POE for officials to "pay particular attention" to this.
Question A: Do you do this on your own as a personal choice or because those you assign you to games in your area don't want you to follow what the NFHS says on this?
Question B: Would you lose games for enforcing the NFHS POE on unsporting acts and calling the technical fouls?

2. Hypothetical: You are standing on the block during a TO and the team has moved its huddle well out onto the court near the FT lane line closest to the bench. In short, they are near the edge of the bench area defined by 1-13-3. They are certainly permitted to be out there by 5-12-5, so you can't direct them to move elsewhere, but their placement puts them quite near you.
Question A: Would you move away from your position on the block in order to maintain some distance from the team huddle, since you believe, "One of the reasons the NF puts us on the block is to stay away from the possibility of overhearing comments and possible confrontation with players and coaches."?

Now someone in this huddle uses profanity. Since there is no one else near the huddle, as they are out there in the middle of the floor by themselves, you are sure that it came from this team, but you don't know which specific individual said it.

Question B: What action would you take? Ignore it, warn the coach, tell them to "knock off the language guys", or charge a technical foul.

Sharing your answers to the above will certainly help me to understand how you and/or your area handles this unsporting language issue and more importantly the rationale behind why that method is used. Thanks.

Good questions, Nevada.

Please note that the statement outlined in red above has already been addressed by myself and is different from what I have already stated. Again.....if I "assume"(don't know for sure) that the language came from the huddle, I won't call it. If there isn't any doubt that the language did come from the huddle, I will call it. Just wanted to clarify that.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Nevadaref


Rut,
That's one of the best posts I've ever seen from you. It's well-written, conveys an intelligent message, and clearly makes its point.

However, what you just wrote seems to be quite different from the material that I disagree with, which appears in your earlier posts in this thread. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I figured that sportsmanship was pretty much a universal concept. Maybe the HS sports environment is vastly different there than it is in my area. You'll have to help clarify a couple of things for me about your area.

Nevada,

I am not writing this for your approval of how well written it is or if you like the points I am making. Save the comments like that for a book review or a review of an article.

We are basketball officials, not the CIA.

Originally posted by Nevadaref
1. You stated that you "will not be paying close attention to what they are doing in the team huddle" and that profanity in the huddle during a TO is "something I am not going to worry about." This is in direct conflict with the NFHS's directive in the POE for officials to "pay particular attention" to this.
Question A: Do you do this on your own as a personal choice or because those you assign you to games in your area don't want you to follow what the NFHS says on this?
Question B: Would you lose games for enforcing the NFHS POE on unsporting acts and calling the technical fouls?

This is not at all in direct conflict with what the NF says. I have also told you before that what the NF says is not the ultimate law either. The NF is not the only governing body that can share an opinion or tell the officials what to do. There is nothing that says we have to go "listening for comments" in the huddles of teams. If there is such a directive, where is that information? The NF only says is we can penalize players and coaches for things they say. Once again, this is not my priority. I am not going to call fouls when I do not see actions from players. I am not going to call Ts on players and coaches for language I do not hear. You have shown nothing that says the NF wants us to do this.

Originally posted by Nevadaref
2. Hypothetical: You are standing on the block during a TO and the team has moved its huddle well out onto the court near the FT lane line closest to the bench. In short, they are near the edge of the bench area defined by 1-13-3. They are certainly permitted to be out there by 5-12-5, so you can't direct them to move elsewhere, but their placement puts them quite near you.
Question A: Would you move away from your position on the block in order to maintain some distance from the team huddle, since you believe, "One of the reasons the NF puts us on the block is to stay away from the possibility of overhearing comments and possible confrontation with players and coaches."?

Now someone in this huddle uses profanity. Since there is no one else near the huddle, as they are out there in the middle of the floor by themselves, you are sure that it came from this team, but you don't know which specific individual said it.

I am not 100% sure if this is a nationwide thing, but they did not want us here to have team benches out all the way on the floor. They want the players and coaches to stay in a much more confined area. So I do not have these kinds of problems with benches coming to the FT area. If that did happen and there was no directive from my state, I would move. When I work 3 person mechanics (which is 95% of the time) and the officials that is going to put the ball in play does not even stand next to the table. Another real world issue is the cheerleaders. With all the flipping and acrobatic displays, usually we are further away than the blocks. If you stay on the block, someone is going to run into you or flip into you. Forgive me if my attention is not directly on the players especially when about 4 years ago a cheerleader almost flipped into me during a 20 second timeout (the rule had not changed).

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Question B: What action would you take? Ignore it, warn the coach, tell them to "knock off the language guys", or charge a technical foul.

I think I have already said what I would do if I could not pin it down a person for their language. Even if I heard someone say something, I like to have a word with them or their coach. Giving a T is not my first choice or in my opinion the best way to handle this situation. I personally do not care what others do, it works for me. This is also a common practice where I live. If I called every bad word in every situation like you suggest there would be no players and coaches around.

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Sharing your answers to the above will certainly help me to understand how you and/or your area handles this unsporting language issue and more importantly the rationale behind why that method is used. Thanks.

Nevada, I am going to suspect that you will not understand much of what I say because you have a position that is not in line with what I believe. You are one of those rulebook officials that feel that what the NF writes should have no philosophy or alternate application. I believe it was Ed Hightower that said and I am paraphrasing, "If you can change an action without calling a Technical foul that is a good thing." Now I know officials much greater than anyone here that feels pretty much the same way I do (actually the other way around) and no one is questioning their competence. I work college ball and they have the same rules and no one enforces these rules without pause or consideration for other philosophies.

Peace