Faking a charge

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Coach: Didn't look there was any contact there at all!
Ref: Of course there was, Coach. Otherwise, how'd your guy get knocked to the ground?

Coach: "He got knocked to the ground because he was charged. You missed it @sshole, now T me up for THAT!"

Got a snappy comeback for that Chuck? I hope so, 'cause you gave A 2 FT's for nothing, and now you're gonna T Coach B because he's right & you're wrong and both of you know it.

Nice job.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I think the problem is that the defender definitely did violate the rule, but the penalty for the violation is too severe.

So you can do nothing, or you can give a lesser penalty.

Rules reference for givng the lesser penalty?

[Junker]

How many of you have actually called this T? I had to once because a partner warned a kid loudly and everyone in the gym knew he was warned. Personally, if there's no contact I have a conversation with the kid or the coach and let him know how I saw the play and he or she needs to stay on their feet and take the contact.

[Mark Padgett]

Ya'know - I think the penalty for a flagrant foul is too severe. So, the next time B1 punches A1 in the face, I'll just give A1 one free throw and let his team inbound half the ball. I'll also throw B1 halfway out of the game.

Guys, "modifying" a penalty by making an incorrect call is not fair to either team. This is similar to the thinking the NBA had under the old "forceout" rule. They finally came around to realize either the contact was severe enough to be called a foul, or else it wasn't and you had a turnover. It couldn't be "sort of a foul but not really".

[refTN]

So between Jurassic, W&S, and Dan you guys have had, what would you say 50 T's?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN
So between Jurassic, W&S, and Dan you guys have had, what would you say 50 T's?

Why or how is this relevant in any way to this discussion?

[refTN]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Why or how is this relevant in any way to this discussion?

You guys say it should be called exactly by the rulebook each and every time so I assume you and the other guys have called a ton of T's.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN

You guys say it should be called exactly by the rulebook each and every time so I assume you and the other guys have called a ton of T's.

I think that you need to take a reading comprehension course before you assume things.

We all basically said that you have to make this call BY THE RULES. Iow, you can't make up your own little set of rules just because you feel like it. That might be OK in the ......wait for it......SEC, but it sureashell doesn't fly anywhere else. If you go back and read our posts again, you will find that we all said basically the same thing----> if a defender flops without contact, then the RULES say that you can either call a "T" on the defender for flopping OR you can no-call the play. Nowhere did any of us state or recommend that anyone SHOULD call a "T". What we DID say was that you can't call a personal foul for blocking on a defender without physical contact being present, as Chuck stated in another post.



[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 5th, 2005 at 09:51 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN
As an official, if a kid is falling before he gets hit but there is contact I will call a block or nothing at all.

Even if the kid falling down had legal guarding position?

Lah me.

[Junker]

Thanks for the clarification JR. I thought that's what you were getting at. I'd still like to hear if anyone else ever calls the T for flopping. As stated before, I got handcuffed into calling it one night, but that's honestly the only time I've ever even heard of it being called. I'd like to see them experiment with changing the rule to a common foul (although they'd have to change the terminology so that it wouldn't have to include contact). I see this T much like the T for running OOB that was changed for this year. It happens alot, but the rule is almost never enforced because the penalty seems too severe.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by refTN

You guys say it should be called exactly by the rulebook each and every time so I assume you and the other guys have called a ton of T's.

Well, personally, I think it is reasonable to accept the player moving a bit as part of the natural human reaction to a known impending impact. One part of the brain says to move, and another part say stay to "get the charge call". Those neurons conflicting with each other allow a good referee to only call the obvious technical fouls.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Junker
Thanks for the clarification JR. I thought that's what you were getting at. I'd still like to hear if anyone else ever calls the T for flopping. As stated before, I got handcuffed into calling it one night, but that's honestly the only time I've ever even heard of it being called. I'd like to see them experiment with changing the rule to a common foul (although they'd have to change the terminology so that it wouldn't have to include contact). I see this T much like the T for running OOB that was changed for this year. It happens alot, but the rule is almost never enforced because the penalty seems too severe.

Dan was getting at exactly the same thing too, as was W&S.

Personally I've called a "T" twice in a whole buncha years iirw, and both times it was after I had already issued an off-the-record warning for it in that game. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've no-called it though, or warned a defender to cut it out. Might be just me, but I don't believe in issuing the same warning twice.

I agree with you that the penalty usually does not fit the crime in this particular case. The only problem is that it tends to get coaches who aren't aware that their player was flopping riled up. A warning and a little whisper to the coach usually takes care of that problem imo.

[Junker]

JR,
I think most of us approach this situation as you described the the previous post. The flop for me falls more into a game management situation. In fact, the one time I did call it, I talked to the coach about the player (after my partner loudly warned the coach and player) and told him exactly what I was seeing and where it falls according to the rules. When I made the call, the coach jumps up off the bench and is about to say something to me. I just put up the stop sign and said "coach, that's exactly the play I discussed with you between quarters". He sat down and was good the remainder of the game. Most of the time coaches will respond to the warning.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by refTN
So between Jurassic, W&S, and Dan you guys have had, what would you say 50 T's?

You mean for this play?...hold on, I got a lot of games to think back on...let's see...uhmmm...ok...yeah...yeah...then there was...and then there was...

OK, I got it now. For this play I've had exactly zero T's.

What about you sonny?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Junker
As stated before, I got handcuffed into calling it one night

Were you wearing your fishnets at the time? WHOA!